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Hydraulic throw-out bearing?

Discussion in 'Engine and Drivetrain/Mechanical' started by tarafied1, Apr 27, 2016.

  1. David67

    David67 Member

    I would wait till you have everything installed to measure for a driveshaft. You might get lucky and could reuse your old one. I waited till I converted everything to T5 from a c4 and my old driveshaft fit just fine. I just went and had the balanced and put new u-joints.
     
    Fishfreq likes this.
  2. guruatbol

    guruatbol Always on vacation!

    On my 65 with the TKO I bought a new one, but on the T5 in the 67 I got one from a big block Galaxy and had it shortened. I don't recall how much it cost, but I am sure the Galaxy one cost me a bunch less!

    Sent from my XT1030 using Tapatalk
     
    Fishfreq likes this.
  3. stangg

    stangg Member

    It seems to me that you have the skills to piece it together some and maybe save a few bucks.... perhaps making the crossmember, and adding a modified clutch pedal to your existing pedal assy. If they are all quoting you a "package deal" versus a set kit, you might want to exclude the shifter knob as Tremec will send you one once you register the transmission at their site. Also, the shifter is included with the transmission, so the only thing you'd really need there is a shift lever arm.
    I also agree with others to hold off on the driveshaft until the trans is installed.
     
  4. tarafied1

    tarafied1 Well-Known Member

    thanks guys. They actually recommended that too (Both). American Power Trains quote includes a DS but they said they don't send it until the trans is in and you send them the dimensions.
    I just googled the TKO and the bell from Quick Time and compared to the C6 and it is about 2" shorter. I have a custom aluminum DS now. Unfortunately you can't stretch them so if it is indeed shorter I will need a new one.
     
  5. tarafied1

    tarafied1 Well-Known Member

    i did price all the same type of parts needed and in some cases the exact same. Other than a few things I forgot, they numbers were pretty close. The nice thing is they send it all together from same place with free shipping!
     
  6. Fishfreq

    Fishfreq FishFreak

    Hey @tarafied1, resurrecting this thread because I'm curious how that internal Tilton hydraulic throw out bearing worked out for you? I'm at the clutch decision point of my T5z swap from c4 behind a mildly built 302 roller, '68 mustang, and I've been hunting for an option that has ample throw to allow both clean shifts AND free-play at the top, as in, so that the throwout bearing isn't spinning 24/7. I considered the Tilton but got scared away by the price, thinking how heartbreaking it would be to install it, and struggle with setup after...

    Seems that a lot of the external slave hydro conversions don't have much travel and need some preload into the diaphragm springs, and that just seems like a good way to destroy t/o bearings? Correct me if I'm wrong... So far my responses have been about 50/50 on this concept. New to the vintage mustang build, sbf scene, but long time car-truck-boat-cycle builder guy. I have a used Modern Driveline cable clutch setup I may test, but it's gonna need a fresh cable (LT header burn) down the line. Yea, and header plan is next, LT, shorty, try-Y, it all depends on clutch, and my borgeson p/s box too. I can't wait to get her rollin' ;) !!
     
  7. Horseplay

    Horseplay Well-Known Member

    The Tilton gets installed with .125" clearance. The bearing has a max stroke distance of nearly 3/4" (.700") although your set-up should limit it from nearing the max for obvious reasons.
    This is by far the cleanest system in terms of install and finished look. Slave set-ups can cause issue with header/exhaust clearance, etc. Plus you have additional areas of concern for seal failures and leaks. For me going internal was the obvious choice. While I don't have thousands of road miles on mine I have run it for hours and shifted it while up on stands and everything is very smooth. I like it!
     
    Fishfreq likes this.
  8. Fishfreq

    Fishfreq FishFreak

    So describe your result Horseplay; do you have any return spring, up in the stock return spring location, to lift the pedal back up? So clearly with 1/8" clearance, the bearing is totally free from the clutch up top, and .7" is plenty to get clean shifts, is that what you're saying, or you run out of pedal travel? Call me Capt. Obvious, you gotta spell it out to me... Also, what clutch (level) are you running? How smooth is the pedal action? How firm, light or heavy, is your pedal? Asking about the pedal because if you said 'super light pedal', I'd guess you have less than 1:1 hydraulic ratio right? What size master cylinder did you use? Did you go remote Wilwood?

    I considered the RAM hydraulic t/o release bearing, which also has .7" travel, a beefy o-ring/wiper setup and is only about $200, however, the input bearing sleeve needs to be machined down a few thousandths, and that costs $$. RAM also sells an in-line hydro adjuster, if your pedal release is too high, it kinda lets you adjust delayed release, so it appears? Add another $140 for that...
     
  9. Horseplay

    Horseplay Well-Known Member

    To start with I have to say I think you are way over thinking this. For me to write that is almost funny given how I typically approach things.

    This has been done countless times successfully. We are not discussing something that is new and untried. MDL sells the whole thing as a kit to avoid trying to piece it all together yourself. This route would also give you a supplier to support your installation and answer any questions directly. I've heard nothing but great things about their knowledge and support.

    I felt much more confident with a Tilton bearing than some of the other options, including RAM. This is what Tilton does so I trust they know better than a clutch manufacturer on how a fluid bearing needs to be designed. My research supported that logic.

    I am using a stock '65 mustang clutch pedal set-up with the stock return spring. I did rollerize the pedal by installing actual ball bearings. I made a clutch pedal stop to prevent over-travel of the pedal. I used a master from MDL (I was going to use a Wilwood (have it for sale if interested) but I instead bought the MDL linkage and their master just to make the install more of a bolt-in than yet another fab job I had to do myself. This master matches up with the fluid volume required by the Tilton 6000 bearing I used. I went with a Ram Powergrip clutch and matching flywheel.

    My describing pedal effort is almost worthless as we have nothing known to both with which to compare. All I can say is it is very much like any street performance clutch pedal effort I have experienced. Really not more than any old stock set-up I've driven. My leg is not going to get larger by driving this car.
     
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  10. tarafied1

    tarafied1 Well-Known Member

    I'm glad Terry answered because I still haven't put my engine back together yet!
     
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  11. Fishfreq

    Fishfreq FishFreak

    Thank you for your reply Horseplay, appreciate it. I plan on using the weld on ball bearing clutch pedal shaft kit myself. I've seen MDL's master linkage and I've talked to them, they seem very knowledgeable and helpful, however one user of another forum bought the external slave hyrdo kit from them, installed it, had way insufficient pedal travel, and MDL sent him out a different slave which improved the situation. This was about 2 months ago, so they clearly are not set on how to make these work every time. I just hate doing things twice, and enjoy the info and lessons I've collected from these forums to help me do things right the first time.

    I did find it interesting that some 'preload' their throwout bearing against their clutch diaphragm spring because their hydraulic clutch doesn't have enough throw to get full release otherwise, and some say this is standard practice today. I must be old school, I like free play at the top... Anyone else out there chime in here?
     
  12. kb3

    kb3 Well-Known Member

    With regards to MDL, they are a great company to do business with. I have had the external slave with their master and linkage kit in the car for the past 6 years with zero issues. I was always told that the internal slaves should not touch the pressure plate until acted upon. It makes sense, otherwise the bearing is always spinning. I just did a clutch job in my nieces Ranger and it has a spring loaded internal master cylinder that is always in contact with the pressure plate....that is a Ford design. So I guess it works! Also, if someone could find a way to convert that item for our use, they would make millions, as that replacement part is only $35 for the entire internal slave assembly!
     
    Fishfreq likes this.
  13. Fishfreq

    Fishfreq FishFreak

    That's good word on MDL @kb3, thank you! So your external slave setup does indeed have free play at the top? Yea that Ranger clutch setup is out there, but seeing how throwout bearings usually have plain ol' open, non-sealed bearings I don't get how they'd last very long spinning 24/7? I think I've seen that cheap internal ford setup, but that low price is scary too! Isn't that a t5 in the Ranger?
     
  14. Horseplay

    Horseplay Well-Known Member

    I almost always give the vendor benefit of the doubt as to why something wasn't right on the first try. You have to remember they are only going off what their customer tells them. As an old field tech I can tell you what I would find when I got somewhere was rarely what they told me over the phone! There are so many possible minor differences in our rides that not all can be caught especially with a hobbiest type customer providing the only information.
     
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  15. Fishfreq

    Fishfreq FishFreak

    That makes sense, so many bellhousing styles, and so many possibilities for someone installing a slave, m/c slightly different than the next guy. Ok then, I'll trust MDL. Clutch in order, now I need a 302 header, LT, mid or shorty that'll clear my stock shock towers AND Borgeson power steering box. Well, I'd like to think that FPA and their $800 ceramic header isn't my only option. Off to the search engines...
     

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