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351 build

kb3

kb3

Well-Known Member
OK....not Mustang related, but certainly in the neighborhood.

As fate would have it, I stumbled upon a roller 351/AOD combo for the great price of free. I have been considering which vehicle to bring in the shop for the next build and I guess my 77 Bronco just won out!

So, knowing that the motor needs to be gone through, and me never leaving well enough alone I am considering building a stroker of some sort. 408 possibly? I know there are several engine experts here, where should I start my research? I want to build something strong, but streetable. Nothing too wild like what is in my fastback. Is the 408 the right displacement or should I look at something different? I am guessing the engine has never been touched, looks like it was pulled out of a truck years ago.

Help, suggestions, directions, comments are all appreciated.

Ken
 
I'd say 408 is right for you. Unlike stroking a 302 where you can get into trouble with short piston skirts and wobble, etc. stroking a 351 to either 393 or 408 doesn't present the same issues. Used to be a 393 was cheaper because you used stock rods and pistons but nowadays you can get kits with custom rods, etc for about the same. Both engines are equally durable if built right. Going beyond 408 is when you can start pushing to the edge.

I presume the will be no serious drag strip or red lining in its future so go with the 408 and love the torque of a stroker. Even a rather mild one will get into the 500's pretty easily. I would save on the rotating portion as you can investing the real money in some nice heads. It's gonna want to breathe. Same goes for exhaust. Go as big as you can fit.
 
Thanks for chiming in Terry! So where does one start their research for kits, parts, what goes with what etc? A quick google search came up with Eagle products at Summit. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...jXadgNlI24dq2GTqS6MbGQbNuB1MmQzkaAiAtEALw_wcB

Is that any good...crap...look for something else? Any good websites with knowledgeable folks with regards to building these?

What are considered "nice heads" these days. I haven't really followed this over the last decade or so. I should also mention I plan to go FI, just not sure if it will be Ford SEFI again or one of the other players. Room is an issue under the hood on these rigs.
 
If you are not in a hurry and want to buy a finished short block it's hard to do better than Ford Strokers here in my area. Woody will also sell a balanced rotating kit as well. He uses Scat. I did in my build too. Eagle (from all I hear and read) is not good. Even a "good" brand of the main stream stuff should have a good man check it out and balance it right. No one is better than Woody and his prices are very fair. Like $1800 or so for a prepped and balanced kit. Or buy a rotating kit from somewhere else and have a competent local shop check it out/balance. They all need rebalancing ;).

As far as heads go both AFR and TFS (Trick Flow) are top notch. TFS cut their teeth on Ford heads while AFR is more the every brand company. Equally good, I think. I went TFS in my last build. 11r's which are a killer head. Both use really good valve trains on their shelf heads. AFR used to be really bad but what they use now is quite good. Unless you do a really stupid cam (which I don't see you doing) you could just bolt either on.
 
kb3 said:
Thanks for chiming in Terry! So where does one start their research for kits, parts, what goes with what etc? A quick google search came up with Eagle products at Summit. https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...jXadgNlI24dq2GTqS6MbGQbNuB1MmQzkaAiAtEALw_wcB

Is that any good...crap...look for something else? Any good websites with knowledgeable folks with regards to building these?

What are considered "nice heads" these days. I haven't really followed this over the last decade or so. I should also mention I plan to go FI, just not sure if it will be Ford SEFI again or one of the other players. Room is an issue under the hood on these rigs.
Click to expand...

I put a 408ci Eagle Rotating assembly in my 69 block, no issues. Runs great and lots of low end torque with my Comp Magnum 280H cam. Buy the balanced option and get the balancer and flexplate/flywheel so you don't have to send it all out to be balanced.

2nd gear band broke in the FMX so I had to go 1st to 3rd
https://redshost.com/media/2019PITS/Video/English_Mountian_Raceway.html
 
Horseplay said:
If you are not in a hurry and want to buy a finished short block it's hard to do better than Ford Strokers here in my area. Woody will also sell a balanced rotating kit as well. He uses Scat. I did in my build too. Eagle (from all I hear and read) is not good. Even a "good" brand of the main stream stuff should have a good man check it out and balance it right. No one is better than Woody and his prices are very fair. Like $1800 or so for a prepped and balanced kit. Or buy a rotating kit from somewhere else and have a competent local shop check it out/balance. They all need rebalancing ;).

As far as heads go both AFR and TFS (Trick Flow) are top notch. TFS cut their teeth on Ford heads while AFR is more the every brand company. Equally good, I think. I went TFS in my last build. 11r's which are a killer head. Both use really good valve trains on their shelf heads. AFR used to be really bad but what they use now is quite good. Unless you do a really stupid cam (which I don't see you doing) you could just bolt either on.
Click to expand...


I am fortunate to have several excellent machine shops in my area. I was going to pick their brains as well, but wanted to have some current knowledge on the subject before I walked into the building. No doubt they all have their go to brands.
 
These things always seem to turn into arguments as there are always fans of whatever brands. I am not wanting to argue just sharing what I know firsthand and all that I have heard from people I trust and what I have read on the wild west we know as the internet. However, there is one thing that EVERYONE should not do. That is trust that some "balanced" rotating assembly you got from a mass producing manufacturer delivered to your doorstep is ready to bolt it. It is not. Ever. Ask ANY quality engine builder. Forged is typically better than cast but still not close enough to guaranteed to trust it. Scat comes close but still can benefit anywhere from a little to a lot depending on your luck. Every Eagle set-up someone I spoke to personally either needed a good amount of work or was so off they had to return it. Just about everything I got third hand or off the internet pretty much echoed the same. I know of two shops I have dealt with that will not even use their stuff. That doesn't mean you can't get lucky. Just that it means you probably NEED to get lucky. If you are building an engine from the block up it is never inexpensive. Spend the couple hundred bucks or so and have it checked by someone reliable who knows what they are doing. Just makes sense.

Now if you want to go with a premium brand things get much better but you will pay for that and in a street engine it is simply not needed.
 
Horseplay said:
... Every Eagle set-up someone I spoke to personally either needed a good amount of work or was so off they had to return it. Just about everything I got third hand or off the internet pretty much echoed the same. I know of two shops I have dealt with that will not even use their stuff. ...
Click to expand...

Eagle rotating assemblies do not come balanced, so yes they would need some work. To balance them you need the harmonic balancer and flywheel/flexplate balanced with the crank, which is the same for many on-line (Summit?) kits that you may order. I've heard that Roush once used Eagle, so even if they moved on to something else, they must have been good at one time. I'm sure that just like others (Scat?), there are a few that have problems.
 
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The knock on Eagle has been that the condition of the cranks as delivered was so bad (off) that machinists didn't want to even try to correct and balance them. And I agree, There was a time some years ago you didn't hear of such with them. Not the first time a quality supplier went south.

So far at least Scat has maintained a good reputation. That's who pretty much everyone uses these days outside of serious race engines.
 
There appears to be a significant price difference between Eagle and Scat components. If you live by the "you get what you pay for" ideology, then there may be something behind this. I hope to get over to one of the local shops this week and pick their brain.
 
Had some "free"time this afternoon and all this crank talk got me doing some deeper dives. Learned a few things in the process. First and foremost almost every crank supplier brings in stuff from China these days. The better ones at least do their own machining Stateside. Some do it much better than others. And as I find in all kinds of industries I work with, the smarter/better ones have more control over the Chinese operation. In fact, they might even own the operation (in so much as a US firm is allowed to over there). SCAT is one such entity that even dictates their own steel properties and sourcing. I was surprised to learn that Callies pulls from China too. That just goes to show you can get a good quality product if you are willing to work to get it as the better companies do.

So all that leads me to this suggestion. Buy the best quality part your budget allows. That may not always be the most expensive but it will almost never be the cheapest. A cast crank is likely just fine for a street engine but typically a forged piece from a quality supplier is only hundreds more and the quality and QC on such is usually greater. Neutral or internal balance is better than external. I beam rods are more than enough unless you are putting all kinds of boost on them. Same goes for pistons. You don't need forged (and their cold noise/wear) if you're not spraying or applying pressure. And ALWAYS have a good machinist go over everything and machine to correct tolerances.

And as Ford guys we have to remember a well built, big cube stroker small block's weakest component may very well be the block itself. If using a stock block and making big power some form of bottom end girdle is a good idea.
 
Bringing one back to the top. I finally had a chance to tear into the "free" 351. Upon tear down it appears to be a fresh .030 over rebuild from Ford. Little to no wear anywhere in the engine except someone before me let water get into one of the cylinders. The machine shop tells me the rust pits won't clean up at .040 over and I am really hesitant to go to .060 over.

So I think it is time to toss this one and maybe look to rebuilt the original 302 that came out of the truck. I was really looking forward to the extra torque that would have come with a 408 build. So now, what to do with the 302 to wake it up.
 
I will ask the machine shop what their thoughts and the cost may be. I am a couple hundred in to find out it’s no good. What’s a few hundred more!?!?
 
My 351w Stroker is now a 414ci using .060 slugs in my factory 69 block.
 

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The early blocks had thicker walls, but you still have to be careful about core shift during the manufacturing process. It is not uncommon to punch a 351w to 60 over.

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Find FORD 5.8L/351 Ford small block Windsor Engine Rotating Kits 4.060 in. Bore (in.), eagle rotating kit KEYWORD and get Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing!
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Horseplay said:
Sleeve it! Nothing wrong with a sleeve and very little added cost. Build the 408.
Click to expand...
Shop said less than $150 to sleeve that cylinder. Looks like I may go that path after all. I do have a couple things to weigh however. I was using the 351 because I had it. But due to the increased deck height I would most likely need a body lift on the rig to clear the hood. The other route is a 5.0 out of a 2000's Explorer. Fits with no modifications to the body height. Why must everything come with decisions?!
 
What is the purpose of this rig? If you will do actual off-roading the torque of a bored and stroked 351 will be great. If just a cruiser and around town vehicle the rather sedateness of the modern 5.0 would be appreciated.

You can deal with the engine height with a tasteful hood scoop, I'm sure. Probably a lot easier than managing the width of that 5.0
 
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