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Help me solve my front end lift

Finally........................... after several days of trying register

Your chasing your tail here.

Start here:
1. What are your rear spring rates? This key(Saw you list 4-leaf, not interested in leafs.....spring rate)
2. Shocks?
3. Panhard bar? track bars? watts link?
After this, then focus on the front end.......... toe +/- is not going to effect lift
camber gain? how much?
Picture can fool us : lift, body roll, most tracks are not flat

Tony
 
Finally, someone with "real" track experience shows up! Maybe you can pass on some of the secrets too :pbj
 
Tony's car is as fast if not faster than most cars here. He has no front splitter. Sure, the front splitter helps provide some front end stability at high speeds but almost none of the vintage race cars run 'em. You don't see those cars riding high in the front do ya?

I'm no aerodynamicist (could hardly spell it!) but I'm almost positive you are not creating enough high pressure under the car to raise 2000lbs-ish (est. front end weight) several inches. Look at all the wings and winglets F1 and Indy cars have all over the place to create several 1000lbs of downforce. You have nothing like that under the car to create lift...

It
 
"Shaun" said:
Tony's car is as fast if not faster than most cars here. He has no front splitter. Sure, the front splitter helps provide some front end stability at high speeds but almost none of the vintage race cars run 'em. You don't see those cars riding high in the front do ya?

I'm no aerodynamicist (could hardly spell it!) but I'm almost positive you are not creating enough high pressure under the car to raise 2000lbs-ish (est. front end weight) several inches. Look at all the wings and winglets F1 and Indy cars have all over the place to create several 1000lbs of downforce. You have nothing like that under the car to create lift...

It
Click to expand...


It..........what?
 
the only reason I mentioned toe a while back was the geometry of the later spindles is different. I read somewhere about 65/66's having issues with lift due to this difference. Something about as the front raises the toe changes and caused the tires to force the nose up by binding the suspension. I don't have experience with it or any valuable knowledge, just thought it might be important to check into.
 
"silverblueBP" said:
It..........what?
Click to expand...

Sh - It . . . . is what you say when your car lifts for no good reason.

You don't want to use a limit strap to fix this issue. That would cause all kinds of problems with the strap being almost tight all the time. The limit strap deal is to keep the spring from falling out when the car is jacked up. Here is a crappy old photo of one I put on a car years ago. The poor thing's still got a rubber perch. The car was a bit jacked up to take this photo. The ride height was much lower.

limitcable.jpg
 
Tony,

Thanks for chiming in. Below is my suspension set up and my latest alignmnet:

Front:
- Global West UCA's
- TCP LCA's
- 620 front coil springs, 560 lbs (cut for ride height)
- OpenTracker roller spring perches
- Edelbrock IAS springs
- '70 big bearing spindles
- TCP strut rods
- Baer Tracker bumpsteer kit
- 1" front bar
- TCP manual R+P

Subframe connectors

Rear:
- Mustangs Plus Mid-Eye Performance 4 leafs rated at 165 lbs
- Panhard bar
- Edelbrock IAS shocks
- Afco spring rod modified Traction Bars.

No binding, no noticable bumpsteer.

My latest alignment specs are below:
Camber left -1.12*
Camber right -1.36*

Toe left +0.05*
Toe right +0.03*

Caster left +2.51*
Caster right +2.43*

Any help or guidance is appreciated!

Thanks,
Tim

Edited to correct alignment specs.
 
Tim and others

Going to need my hand held....posting pictures.

Just not working so far. have some pictures to show same sort of lift in several cars

Tim, front springs are a little weak for me. I like them stiffer
Panhard bar...is it adjustable? if so move the bar all the way to the bottom, this will allow more body roll I think we are seeing some evidence in your pictures.
the weight transfer shows it....not a big deal. The front end is going to lift on these cars. The 69-70 cars are much better for this...but they weigh 600lbs more.
Toe in is the way to go. makes the car much more stable under braking and high speeds.
Have you done the "shelby Drop"?
 
Tony,

email them to me and I'll post them for now. When you have a free 3 hrs I can show you what to do yourself :yah

silverbluestang66@yahoodotcom (replace the word dot with . )
 
Here are a couple pics from Tony.



IMGP8105CustomJPG.jpg


IMGP8090CustomJPG.jpg
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Glad to see Tony here to help us out. (Good to hear from you Tony. From all of us who have caught the road course fever.)

Skip
 
Perhaps I am a newb and totally offbase BUT:

Toe left +0.05*
Toe right +0.03*
Click to expand...

I know I had problems with front end lift...on the street.. when I had a buggered Toe spec (Should be NEG?? not POS??) along with bind from ancient perches and floppy strut rod bushings.....

/shrug :confu

I now run:
Edelbrock IAS shocks
ORP roller perches
GW upper control arms
Home modifed, boxed, roller lower control arms
SoT Adjustable strut rods
ORP Progressive front springs
Baer bump steer eliminators

I follow ORP alignment recommendations for street use. I do my own alignments in my garage. (Thanks to this and "the other" forum members)
No lift, no bumpsteer, rock solid feel. (I wish I had power steering, Borgeson here I come, if I can adjust for manual Z bar issues)

Thanks to Shaun (SoT) and John(ORP), my car is on rails. If I had a track anywhere near, I would be there thrashing it hard, but the nearest crappy track is 8 hours drive away. (I live in an igloo :roll)
 
"TruNorth" said:
(I live in an igloo :roll)
Click to expand...


:rulz


Can't be true unless proved with pictures!!


BTW, welcome to the nut farm.
 
"Blueboss" said:
Tim, front springs are a little weak for me. I like them stiffer
Click to expand...

The springs have been cut down quite a bit to get the ride height, so the actual rate is stiffer then the advertised rate. Also, this is primarily a street car with HPDE and Time Trial track time (hopefully) several times a year.


"Blueboss" said:
Panhard bar...is it adjustable? if so move the bar all the way to the bottom, this will allow more body roll I think we are seeing some evidence in your pictures.
the weight transfer shows it....not a big deal.
Click to expand...

The panhard bar is from Gemini Racing (now defunct). It is a nice long piece and is fixed on the passenger side and adjustable on the driver's side. It is set at the lowest setting and is parallel to the ground and parallel to the axle at ride height. This is the best picture I have of the panhard bar (it's hard to get a good shot because it is sandwiched between the fuel cell and the rear end). The fixed rod Traction Bars have since been replaced with AFCO spring rods.

6-3-20097-58-22AM_0004.jpg



"Blueboss" said:
Toe in is the way to go. makes the car much more stable under braking and high speeds.
Click to expand...

What is your suggested aligmnment setting? Keep in mind this is not a dedicated track car.


"Blueboss" said:
Have you done the "shelby Drop"?
Click to expand...

Yes, the Global West UCA's actually allow for 1-3/4" drop.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
"TruNorth" said:
Perhaps I am a newb and totally offbase BUT:

I know I had problems with front end lift...on the street.. when I had a buggered Toe spec (Should be NEG?? not POS??) along with bind from ancient perches and floppy strut rod bushings.....

/shrug :confu

I now run:
Edelbrock IAS shocks
ORP roller perches
GW upper control arms
Home modifed, boxed, roller lower control arms
SoT Adjustable strut rods
ORP Progressive front springs
Baer bump steer eliminators

I follow ORP alignment recommendations for street use. I do my own alignments in my garage. (Thanks to this and "the other" forum members)
No lift, no bumpsteer, rock solid feel. (I wish I had power steering, Borgeson here I come, if I can adjust for manual Z bar issues)

Thanks to Shaun (SoT) and John(ORP), my car is on rails. If I had a track anywhere near, I would be there thrashing it hard, but the nearest crappy track is 8 hours drive away. (I live in an igloo :roll)
Click to expand...

Thanks for chiming in, our set ups seem very similar. The toe setting while (+) is pretty close to 0* toe, but adding a little toe in probably wouldn't hurt. I plan on getting an alignment this Spring to add some more (+) Caster, more (-) Camber. I will, also, get a little Toe in added.

Tim
 
Okay, so I got back out to the track and did a little Test and Tune.
Before the track event, I removed my Afco Spring Rod Traction Masters and replaced my leaf springs with Maier Racing 165 race spring.

So my new suspension set up is:
Front:
- Global West UCA's
- TCP LCA's
- 620 springs (cut)
- OpenTracker roller spring perches
- Edelbrock IAS springs
- '70 big bearing spindles
- TCP strut rods
- Baer Tracker bumpsteer kit
- 1" front bar
- TCP manual R+P

Subframe connectors

Rear:
- Performance 4 leafs
- Maier Racing 165 lb, 1.25" drop race springs
- Panhard bar
- Edelbrock IAS shocks
- Afco spring rod modified Traction Bars.

This set up made the rear noticably stiffer, but on the track I still experienced front end lift right around 120 mph.

After the third track session, I bolted on a chin spoiler and my front end was stable through 135 mph down the straight. There is still one more gear available, so I should be able to see 140 once I am comfortable with the set up.

My issue seemed to be mostly aerodynamics. The front end lift may have been exasperated by my rear ducktail spoiler.

Tim
 
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