Lifter tap?

[limeyboy]

Story goes had the car ( 70 Mach 1 Cleveland engine) since January, engine sounded lovely, started very easily ( still does) and was very quiet running ( notice WAS).
I have done about 300 mls in her and had the aircon topped up a couple of weeks ago and as I drove home on a hot ( for us) day it started to stall in traffic which was unusual and by the time I got home there was a "tapping sound" from the l/h bank.
Long story short the no 3 intake valve had a very loose rattly rocker.
The nut holding the rocker was very loose and I think there are other ones but not as bad.
My question is should I be able to "push on the push rod with something to depress the lifter spring?" I have tried but it is solid and does not give at all so does that mean the lifter is "stuck or damaged"?
My theory is that i believe the car stood for a number of years and even though I changed the oil twice when i bought it some crud has blocked the lifter in the down position possibly.
Iv'e run an engine flush and drained the oil ( so if i do change the lifters hopefully the crud has left the system) but obviously the noise is still there as the rocker is loose.
Should i just reset the lifter and see or do I take the manifold off and change all the lifters?
I forgot to mention a PO had a sticky lifter on that side in 2002 according to a bill ( they cured it with ATF i think!)

So should I be able to push the lifter spring down? should i just take a rocker off another valve and see if i can push that spring down?

The pictures show it's a "bitsa" engine, H code block, 4* heads with some Boss parts I think.

Any guides to setting the lifters would be great as well

Thanks

 

[Horseplay]

I'd say it's a better than fair chance it is a hydraulic lifter arrangement and not a solid. That said, if the lifter had experienced adequate oil pressure it would get "pumped up" and since the rocker was loose and likely not depressing it fully there might be some travel left remaining that you could depress manually. There are a lot of "ifs" and conditions in that assumption though. What I would ask is if the rocker nut was threaded down about the same distance as all the others. If the answer is yes, then it was only loose because the lifter has collapsed or worse, the cam lobe has been wiped. I'd pull the intake and get at the lifter as see what I find. Jam nuts like those aren't known to just loosen.

 

[limeyboy]

Yes Terry the nut looked about the same position as the others and I think the "tick" came about quite suddenly indicating a duff lifter I guess.
The problem with not knowing what all the parts are that I know for sure it has a Boss manifold ( alloy and correct casting number) Ford guide plates, 4* heads from 71 I think, studs not bolts so if you went to all that trouble wouldn't you fit a Boss cam and solid lifters as well?
I'd planned on taking the manifold off next winter ( clean etc) but the "sensible " thing would be to do it now.
I'm thinking of fitting roller hydraulic lifters if I change them, any thoughts?


Jeff

 

[Horseplay]

You can very quickly determine with pretty good certainty if it has a solid cam by checking the remaining rockers for any valve lash. If it's hydraulic there will be none. Hot or cold. If solid, you'll find some clearance between the rocker and valve tip. Not to mention, you'd have heard that very distinctive valvetrain noise all along if it had a solid cam.

Depending on your wrenching abilities, etc., given its an unknown entity, I'd pull and replace all the lifters (you did say the previous owner had a lifter issue). Me, I'd also take the front of the engine off too to inspect the timing chain...planning to pull the cam out. Only way to know what you have in there (although you might get lucky and find some identifying numbers on the face of it).

As far as solid or hydraulic that's up to you. I've never run hydraulic lifters on a solid profile cam. Seems to me it defeats the purpose. For just a cruiser and pleasure car I would personally swap it all out and install a hydraulic cam and lifters. Then I'd know what I had in there and could select a grind that best suits the application. Solids have their place and it's not on a street car. Unless you're old school and like the distinct valvetrain sound. Few do.

 

[limeyboy]

Taken the manifold off and the "duff lifter" doesn't seem to be duff.
I've taken 2 others out "but I can't push any of them down", so unless I'm very weak ( possible Huh) or I'm doing it wrong I have to assume the rocker nut had come loose ( very possible as the other 2 I took off were much tighter)
Anyway as there was a historic sticky lifter and I've gone to all this trouble what is the best thing to do now -

1- replace all the lifters with new ones ( take a chance with breaking them in and not damaging the cam)
2 - refurbish the existing lifters if that is possible ( I'm thinking a good clean and new springs?)
3 - can I soak all the existing lifters in something for a day or so to make sure there is no crud inside then re-fit

I will fit new rocker nuts as some seem looser than others.
I have a tube of Amsoil engine assy lube which I intend to put on the bottom of the lifters when I refit them.

Good news is it seems very clean in the valley ( as the crankcase / crank etc was when I changed the sump pan when I first got the car) .
I now know the heads are open chamber 4v ones ( casting number / mustang tech) but that still doesn't explain why somebody went to the trouble of machining and fitting Ford pushrod guides along with the other upgrade parts.

Also please remember I'm in the UK so parts / advice / somebody else with a V8 is much harder here.

I'm running it on a UK 10w30 oil with 900ppm Zinc as we are limited in what is a reasonable price here.
Going to try and get my pretty alloy manifold media blasted ( very gently) tomorrow or early next week then I might try and rebuild the Holley ( I have a full kit)


Thanks for all your input

 

[Horseplay]

I'm concerned you cannot depress the lifter plungers. You should be able to and it doesn't take Hercules to do it. Hell, could even do it. Is the base concave or otherwise improperly worn? Hard to tell in the pic. It looks odd to me. There needs to be a very, very slight shape to the base which is what makes them turn in the bore.

You can disassemble, clean and put them back together easy enough. If the wear pattern is good just be sure to keep track of which lifter went in each bore. You CANNOT put them into another hole. They are worn in with the cam and really bad things will happen if you mix them up. Unless you find something broken in one cleaning, and reusing is perfectly fine. Put them in a container of oil overnight and then manually prime them while submerged the following day (at least that's what I have always done to prep them).

 

[limeyboy]

OK I will have a look tomorrow, I assume you take them apart by first pushing on them ( ummm) so you can release the spring clip that holds the centre cap down?
The bottom of the lifter should be slightly convex I assume?

 

[Horseplay]

correct on all accounts although the lifter base profile is very subtle

 

[limeyboy]

Just taken a couple apart, they were impossible to push down but got the clips out easily and used an airline to blow them apart, no dirt, rust or crud just "stuck" perhaps as I think it's not been run for years and my 300 miles has upset it ( good thing probably) I've put one back together and it's now very easy to push down.
Plan is now to dismantle and clean all of them then set the valve lash and hopefully all will be good.

 

[Horseplay]

Nice. Be sure to leave them submerged in oil overnight before reinstalling. If you can "pump" them a few times while submerged its also beneficial. At least in my experience. This makes sure they prime quickly once oil pressure gets going in the engine. I'm not sure on what the "FORD" spec calls for but with the valve seated and the lifter on the cam lobe baseline, tighten the rocker arm nut while spinning the pushrod between your fingers. As soon as you feel the pushrod being stalled, stop tightening, and then tighten the nut 1/2 to 3/4 of a turn more. I go just a half turn. This preloads the lifter and you're good to go.

 

[limeyboy]

I think it will be a week or two before it's done, other things on the list first ( or so she tells me) I'll let you know, thanks for the help and tips

 

[B67FSTB]

You can also open up the oil filter and see if there isn't any metal debri. For peace of mind.
When installing lifters , note that they can rotate in the bore easely.
And use new nuts.
just my 2cents.

 

[limeyboy]

ah the nuts are another question, I have 7/16" studs ( possible Boss again) I have ordered the only 12 OE ones I can get here ( obsolete I'm told) which will be a week or two.
Still debating on fitting new lifters, thing is I believe if I had tightened down the one loose nut the tick would have gone ( until it came loose again!! ) so i'm into work I hadn't planned on doing yet ( fan painting, manifold painting, carb rebuild kit etc)
I don't want to rebuild the carb if I have to break the lifters in as I can't be sure she will run well as she does now.
I can get the lifters off the shelf so might change my mind in a weeks time.
Good tip about the oil filter but to be honest I've changed the oil a couple of times and even when i took the sump off there has been no "nasty bits" anywhere.

 

[B67FSTB]

Cutting open the oil filter to inspect for debri and metal is the easiest and cheapest way to be sure nothing is happening inside the engine that could ruin it.
Why OEM nuts ? Just locking nuts ,without the teflon of course .!
Dissambling , inspecting an cleaning the lifters is adequate enough IMHO. Use an ultrasonic device for cleaning glasses is suitable.
my2cents

 

[limeyboy]

The nuts aren't that expensive and once I'm sure the " ticking lifter" has no damage and the cam lobe is OK it is likely to just be a dismantle and clean job then resetting the pre-load on them all.

 

[limeyboy]

Well I put the new lifters in last Thursday but when the "Speed pro" lifters came they were Enginetech! I looked around and could not get anything other than enginetech "off the shelf" over here, very limited availability so I complained and got a discount on the ones delivered, set the pre load and fitted the intake manifold ( what a pain fitting the turkey pan!!!) Started it up this morning with 1,700 ppm zinc oil ( i put assy lube on the lifter bases) and it was banging like a shotgun! Even though I'd labelled the plug leads with big yellow tags I DID NOT RECHECK THE FIRING ORDER ( why is it always the really simple things that catch you out) so after I swapped 5 and 6 over it was sweet. 20 mins at around 2,000 ( up and down a bit as well) and she sounds good apart from after about 10 mins a "whistle appeared" seems to be from the front two barrels actually inside the venturi ( plastic tube in the ear job) doesn't seem to make a difference to how it runs and I think it must be a leak from the gasket, spacer, gasket sandwich so I'll try and take the carb off again tomorrow ( I already have a carb rebuild kit but didn't want to risk changing any settings for the break in period) and see if I can see anything.
I've also learnt that taking the fan and shroud out and refitting it ( on an AC car anyway) is a real pain with the radiator and top hose on.

Next is the autobox Crazy

 

[B67FSTB]

Glad everything went to the better. I noticed the fan and fanshroud. I think you can use a smaller fan spacer. I think the fan sits too deep in the fanshroud to be more efficient. My 2 cents.

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[limeyboy]

Ah, the shroud wasn't fitted in the picture, that was when i was trying to get a torque wrench in there to do the bolts up.

 

[B67FSTB]

I know, but still when the shroud is mounted , it looks that the fan sits too deep into the shroud. Maybe a pic how the fan sits when the shroud is mounted ? It would give you more room to tighten the fan bolts.

 

[B67FSTB]

Here is a pics of how the fan sits in the fanshroud off my vehicle.

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