New Chicago pot law---

[Flysure1]

Chicago to issue tickets for possessing small amounts of pot

By Mary Ann Ahern, NBCChicago.com

CHICAGO -- The Chicago City Council Wednesday voted 43-3 to approve a new city pot policy.

The ordinance gives police the option to issue a ticket for possession of 15 grams of marijuana or less. Arrests would still be mandated for anyone caught smoking pot in public or possessing marijuana in or near a school or in or near a park. The new rules go into effect Aug. 4.

Ald. Danny Solis (25th), who introduced the proposal last fall, called it a "monumental ordinance" that will have "a definite impact."

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[Jonk67]

I was listening to that story this morning, not a smoker but I've always felt it was a huge waste of law enforcement time for an infraction that equates to public drinking. They stated that the average time spent to arrest/write report/incarcerate was 4hrs. for a joint or dime bag vs. <1hr. for a ticket (more like 15min. in my experience).

I don't think this will encourage more people to use or carry pot and anyone ticketed will still be run in NCIC for outstanding warrants, etc. They also stated that 9/10 were plea bargained with no fine or jail time now, if they can reverse that to 9/10 receive tickets that eventually will be paid, or they're picked up for outstanding fines the next time, or license revoked or etc. then the ticket $ can go to the system. That's better than everyone goes free and no fines go towards paying that 4 hours of officer salary time wasted in my book.
Jon

 

[Horseplay]

I was listening to that story this morning, not a smoker but I've always felt it was a huge waste of law enforcement time for an infraction that equates to public drinking. They stated that the average time spent to arrest/write report/incarcerate was 4hrs. for a joint or dime bag vs. <1hr. for a ticket (more like 15min. in my experience).

I don't think this will encourage more people to use or carry pot and anyone ticketed will still be run in NCIC for outstanding warrants, etc. They also stated that 9/10 were plea bargained with no fine or jail time now, if they can reverse that to 9/10 receive tickets that eventually will be paid, or they're picked up for outstanding fines the next time, or license revoked or etc. then the ticket $ can go to the system. That's better than everyone goes free and no fines go towards paying that 4 hours of officer salary time wasted in my book.
Jon

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that this is simply a play to collect more cash. What's next? Legalized prostitution so we can license (cash) and tax (cash) that too? Maybe a few other drugs next? Will we not say no to anything if there is money to be had? Sure seems that way.
I don't have all the answers but I do know this will not end well. This is one step closer to legalizing drug use. One step further down the wrong path.

 

[dodgestang]

So in Arizona the local government passes a law that arguable augments existing immigration laws but the Gov feels goes against laws/power at the fed level and immediately sues them taking it all the to the supreme court. In places all around this country (Chicago just being the latest one) local governments are passing laws that are CLEARLY opposite of the federal laws with regard to the drug issue and what is the gov doing?

Looks like the years of PR campaigning that pot is a harmless drug and just makes people chill out are winning minds and influencing people. Too bad we still have a documented track record that use of drugs, even the 'safe' one pot is still very dangerous not just for the user but any random person it would seem once the munchies kick in

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/27/us/florid ... ?hpt=hp_t2

 

[Jonk67]

That's one way of looking at it. Another is that this is simply a play to collect more cash. What's next? Legalized prostitution so we can license (cash) and tax (cash) that too? Maybe a few other drugs next? Will we not say no to anything if there is money to be had? Sure seems that way.
I don't have all the answers but I do know this will not end well. This is one step closer to legalizing drug use. One step further down the wrong path.

That's another way of looking at it, so you are saying that instead of it still being illegal and issuing a ticket for an illegal act for a minimal amount (hence the ticket) it is better to let 9/10 of them go free with no fine and no jail time (other than one night or a few hours normally) we should cont. to waste 4 hours on every joint arrest, collect nothing and let them go scott free again. So that's a better solution than 9/10 tickets to pay for the manpower from the officers, jail personnel, courts, etc.?

TMK prostitution is already legalized at the chicken ranch and vegas right? And we already have legalized drugs - alcohol, tobacco, nicotine, sleeping pills....
I didn't say I was for legalizing it, just not wasting so much time and energy on an infraction that would warrant a ticket. If you are speeding 15mi. over the limit you get a ticket, if you are doubling the speed limit you go to jail, why don't you go to jail for 15 over? Severity of infraction, both speeds are illegal.

Good discussion and I think the face eating guy was not mentally stable, for as long a people have been smoking pot why is this the first pot head to eat somebody? I've dealt with a lot of heads, none of them have fought me when they were arrested, they were too relaxed and mellow.
Jon

 

[Anonymous]

Legalize it all, tax it just like everything else we buy and hold people responsible for their actions.

 

[ko67]

Seizure alone of the weed is a decent slap on the hand, even without a fine. A hypothetical 15g of top chronic hydro would hypothetically cost $300 from a hypothetical pot vendor that I may or may not know. Slapping a fine on a brother for riding dirty with a blunt or two in his pocket is much better than time in jail for the weed, in my opinion.

In my humble opinion, pot is a pretty low impact drug to public safety. Driving under the influence is rare, because if you are baked enough, there us just no place you need to go. As long as Dominos pizza delivers, driving on weed will be rare.

 

[Gigantopithecus]

Re: Re: New Chicago pot law---

Seizure alone of the weed is a decent slap on the hand, even without a fine. A hypothetical 15g of top chronic hydro would hypothetically cost $300 from a hypothetical pot vendor that I may or may not know. Slapping a fine on a brother for riding dirty with a blunt or two in his pocket is much better than time in jail for the weed, in my opinion.

In my humble opinion, pot is a pretty low impact drug to public safety. Driving under the influence is rare, because if you are baked enough, there us just no place you need to go. As long as Dominos pizza delivers, driving on weed will be rare.

This.

 

[Horseplay]

So let me see. Pot is not so bad a drug that we need to enforce the laws against it. Nobody really gets hurt. Ok. So using that logic that 30 year old guy who has seduced the 14 year old girl and has been having sex with her (consensually) shouldn't be arrested either. After all, she loves him, right? Too extreme? Ok. What about the kid who shoplifts pair of jeans? We should just give him a ticket, right? I'm sure that will stop the behavior. It's not worth the cost and effort of making him face any real consequences and maybe recognizing the jeopardy into which he had placed his future and hopefully causing him to straighten up.

I'm sure this new tactic will work though because I once got a speeding ticket when I was a teenager and learned my lesson and have never sped again. I think it a great practice to stop enforcing our laws because too many people break them. I can't wait until they decide to start issuing tickets for car theft. I'm dying to get my hands on a new mustang.

 

[manley]

I'm sure this new tactic will work though because I once got a speeding ticket when I was a teenager and learned my lesson and have never sped again. I think it a great practice to stop enforcing our laws because too many people break them. I can't wait until they decide to start issuing tickets for car theft. I'm dying to get my hands on a new mustang.

I think you are the rare exception in one direction where someone like my dad is the rare exception in the other direction. He is on his 5th prison term for thieving for a total of over 30 years of actual time in prison(roughly double that for actual sentence). You learned fast about speeding and the price to pay was minimal. Others simply don't care what the consequences are because no matter how many times they get caught, the next time they are sure they can get away with it!

We have to find a happy medium in all things. Sending people to jail for a joint hasn't worked out to any benefit at all. It has not slowed pot smokers down one bit. I don't think this will lead to relaxing the laws when it comes to cocaine/heroin/meth/etc. There is a huge difference there. I don't think pot leads people down a wrong path. There are so many people in the upper echelons of success that smoke it and they still maintain that level of success in their lives! As far as the ones that are leeches on society....well, I think they would be the same leech if they never smoked weed. Some people just naturally suck.

 

[Horseplay]

I think you are the rare exception in one direction where someone like my dad is the rare exception in the other direction. He is on his 5th prison term for thieving for a total of over 30 years of actual time in prison(roughly double that for actual sentence). You learned fast about speeding and the price to pay was minimal. Others simply don't care what the consequences are because no matter how many times they get caught, the next time they are sure they can get away with it!

We have to find a happy medium in all things. Sending people to jail for a joint hasn't worked out to any benefit at all. It has not slowed pot smokers down one bit. I don't think this will lead to relaxing the laws when it comes to cocaine/heroin/meth/etc. There is a huge difference there. I don't think pot leads people down a wrong path. There are so many people in the upper echelons of success that smoke it and they still maintain that level of success in their lives! As far as the ones that are leeches on society....well, I think they would be the same leech if they never smoked weed. Some people just naturally suck.

I think you missed my point. If we do not punish or lessen the punishment to the point it has no effect, our laws become meaningless. You give a teenage kid a ticket for pot possession and he learns nothing. You arrest that teen and force him to call his dad to get him sprung and I promise you he learns a lesson. At least the ones who have a dad in their lives. This type of negative experience can prevent more and greater down the road.

So who determines which laws to enforce and the associated punishments? The police? The mayor? Do we put it on a public referendum? Where does it stop?

 

[manley]

I think you missed my point. If we do not punish or lessen the punishment to the point it has no effect, our laws become meaningless. You give a teenage kid a ticket for pot possession and he learns nothing. You arrest that teen and force him to call his dad to get him sprung and I promise you he learns a lesson. At least the ones who have a dad in their lives. This type of negative experience can prevent more and greater down the road.

Ok...possibly. To be clear, do you think the law should remain as is? Or maybe the severity of the punishment should be increased? I agree that we can not stop enforcing laws, but the laws may need modified to fit the needs of our society, especially if they aren't working. Do you think sending someone to jail for possession of one joint is effective? It depends on the person, in my opinion. For some it does, for some it doesn't. I think people would still smoke pot if the punishment was the death penalty.

Increasing severity does not work for 100% of the population. Lessening it is not going to turn casual users or non-users into full-blown pot heads. People aren't in prison because they were willing to pay the price. They are there because they thought they wouldn't get caught.

My dad has been arrested repeatedly his entire life for breaking the law and he had to call his mom and dad until his was 18, then he still called his mom and dad after that. He did not learn a lesson. The negative experience of serving 14 years of a 25 year sentence for his 3rd offense as an adult still did nothing. He just went back not long ago for his 5th prison term. Do you think he is learning? I don't. His mom and dad are still not giving up on him to this day and hoping for the best the next time. I think they qualify as good parents. Grandpa was a Korean war vet with the Marines who came home and retired from a career in a local steel mill after his 30 years... raised 4 kids, 2 of them adopted from another family member... my dad is just a bad apple and I don't believe any kind of sentence would make him change his ways. Pretty sad.

 

[Horseplay]

Ok...possibly. To be clear, do you think the law should remain as is? Or maybe the severity of the punishment should be increased? I agree that we can not stop enforcing laws, but the laws may need modified to fit the needs of our society, especially if they aren't working. Do you think sending someone to jail for possession of one joint is effective? It depends on the person, in my opinion. For some it does, for some it doesn't. I think people would still smoke pot if the punishment was the death penalty.

Increasing severity does not work for 100% of the population. Lessening it is not going to turn casual users or non-users into full-blown pot heads. People aren't in prison because they were willing to pay the price. They are there because they thought they wouldn't get caught.

My dad has been arrested repeatedly his entire life for breaking the law and he had to call his mom and dad until his was 18, then he still called his mom and dad after that. He did not learn a lesson. The negative experience of serving 14 years of a 25 year sentence for his 3rd offense as an adult still did nothing. He just went back not long ago for his 5th prison term. Do you think he is learning? I don't. His mom and dad are still not giving up on him to this day and hoping for the best the next time. I think they qualify as good parents. Grandpa was a Korean war vet with the Marines who came home and retired from a career in a local steel mill after his 30 years... raised 4 kids, 2 of them adopted from another family member... my dad is just a bad apple and I don't believe any kind of sentence would make him change his ways. Pretty sad.

OK, this will probably go bad but here goes...First off, I'm sorry to hear about your father's situation.

Your dad's parents may not be "good parents". They may be exceptional people but that doesn't mean they can't be bad parents. Maybe they are great with the other kids and just couldn't manage to do what your dad needed from them. I don't know and please don't take offense. I just think ultimately the way a child develops and who they turn into has a lot to do with their upbringing. The more a parent(s) is involved the better the usual result. Parents who assist a kid get out of trouble instead of punishing the act that got them there typically teach the kid some unintended lessons. Number one being they don't have to pay for their transgressions. All any of us can do is the best we can do and hope it is enough.

The number one goal of a parent is to make decent, responsible people out of their kids. Sometimes we fail as parents. Your statement that they will not give up on him is why I say this. I'm guessing tough love wasn't applied early on. It's not easy for sure but it can be the one tool a parent can use to redirect a child. That is why I think a teen caught smoking pot having to answer to his dad from jail is the most powerful tool available. Giving him a ticket is like a get out of jail free card. Dad will probably never know, which means junior just got off with not even a slap on the wrist. So much for teaching that lesson.

You're right. Not every person will respond positively to the same punishment but most people will...unless they have been conditioned by past experience that that they can get away with things without penalty.

I disagree with you that lessening the severity of the punishment will not have an affect on peoples actions. If you were to have your drivers license suspended for 6 months for a speeding ticket instead of a $100 ticket, I'm betting you would monitor your speed more closely. Wouldn't you? If people knew the worst they faced was a small fine/ticket for getting caught with weed, more people would smoke. And they would smoke more and they would now smoke in places they may not have before. That increased use would be noticed by others and some of them would then partake. Kids would see a higher prevalence of pot use so they would be more inclined to start.

 

[Midlife]

To enforce every single law on the books on everyone would require a police force much much larger than we have now. Can we, as a country or a society, afford to pay all of these extra LEOs? I doubt it.

So then...it comes down to setting priorities for law enforcement using available resources and judgement by the local, state, and federal prosecuting attorneys and police commissioners and commissions. Some law infractions can be handled with fines; others with prosecution with fines and jail time; still others with warnings; yet some will not be ever detected let alone prosecuted. Which crimes deserve the most attention from LEOs? That is what this all comes down to: setting priorities. Remember, even a misdemeanor that requires seeing a judge usually means that LEO also has to appear in court and thus not be on the street detecting other crimes.

If giving small fines to marijuana users (not distributors or sellers) permits more LEOs to go after more serious crimes (e.g. rape, robbery, murder, etc.), I'm all for it. If it is simply for increasing revenue for state and local governments, then I'm willing to listen to arguments on both sides. If it is to reduce the number of LEOs hired, then there's a more serious issue to be discussed related to how much society is willing to pay for law enforcement.

 

[Horseplay]

To enforce every single law on the books on everyone would require a police force much much larger than we have now. Can we, as a country or a society, afford to pay all of these extra LEOs? I doubt it.

So then...it comes down to setting priorities for law enforcement using available resources and judgement by the local, state, and federal prosecuting attorneys and police commissioners and commissions. Some law infractions can be handled with fines; others with prosecution with fines and jail time; still others with warnings; yet some will not be ever detected let alone prosecuted. Which crimes deserve the most attention from LEOs? That is what this all comes down to: setting priorities. Remember, even a misdemeanor that requires seeing a judge usually means that LEO also has to appear in court and thus not be on the street detecting other crimes.

If giving small fines to marijuana users (not distributors or sellers) permits more LEOs to go after more serious crimes (e.g. rape, robbery, murder, etc.), I'm all for it. If it is simply for increasing revenue for state and local governments, then I'm willing to listen to arguments on both sides. If it is to reduce the number of LEOs hired, then there's a more serious issue to be discussed related to how much society is willing to pay for law enforcement.

You know, there is an easier cheaper alternative. How about everyone obeys the law? Naive, sure but why not? This latest action in Chicago (which is all about the money) is not unlike what we have been doing for a long time now in the courts. We can't afford to house and keep all the criminals the full term of their sentences so we give them all early release. Hell, in many places the guilty do not even go to jail anymore. How often do you read or hear in the news of some criminal who just murdered/raped/robbed some innocent that should have been in prison but was out do the the lack of jail space? You OK with that?

The criminal knows how much he can work the system and now realizes the odds of him serving any real time are next to none. You've got guys being arrested here everyday with rap sheets more like books that hardly ever serve any time. Their numbers keep growing. If we do not do something to stop the development of new offenders and toss the keys on the habitual ones where does it end?

Scared straight works. Shake up that teen with the threat of a night in jail (real or not) and call his/her dad and let the parent finish the job of scaring the law breaking out of them. Yes, smoking pot is breaking the law.

 

[Jonk67]

Now we've come full circle, why are rapists and murderers being released? because there is no jail space or their sentence isn't heard within the determined time period so they are released because all of the more minor infractions that are jamming up the system. Like a guy with a joint taking that jail space or pushing the docket back for the rapist allowing them to be released. I'd rather see them lower the pot infraction and up the death penalty and the time to execution, that would free up some space. It's pretty obvious murderers and rapists don't care what the penalty is so why not max it out? They won't do it twice at least as stated.

If 9/10 pot arrests are released now as the article says, many without any jail time, then their case dropped and charges expunged. That is NO punishment, is that better than a ticket 9/10 can't get out of? Why doesn't everyone go to jail for speeding 5mph over? It is breaking the law and is illegal. Let's up the speeding punishment instead of changing punishment levels for pot smokers. How many people die due to a pot smoker every day compared to the number that die due to speeding or a speeding driver? Clearly speeding is more dangerous than potheads.

I don't follow the analogy that if pot goes from an arrest to a ticket for a joint that suddenly everyone will be smoking pot, it could be legal and free and I still wouldn't have any urge to smoke.
Jon

 

[sgtjunior]

Scared straight works. Shake up that teen with the threat of a night in jail (real or not)

No it doesn't. When jail is nicer than where you live and you have as many friends in the joint as you do on the street, where's the part where they don't want to do it again?

 

[Horseplay]

No it doesn't. When jail is nicer than where you live and you have as many friends in the joint as you do on the street, where's the part where they don't want to do it again?

Listen, I'm not naive and understand bad guys will be bad guys and idiots don't tend to get any smarter. My argument here is that actions like this open the door to once law abiding people to step over the line. I can fully appreciate law enforcement being better able to use the time wasted (yeah, it's a pun) busting pot smokers dealing with larger crime issues. Whether they arrest or just ticket the punk on the corner smoking a blunt has zero affect on his future actions. I get that. He's a shit. Always will be. However, arrest the kid who drove into the city from the suburbs with a few friends to hang out at Navy Pier and I promise you it will have an affect. A lasting affect.

To me, this is just another case of us throwing up our hands and letting wrong win over right. What message are we sending to our kids? All this does it degrade our society one piece at a time.

 

[Jonk67]

However, arrest the kid who drove into the city from the suburbs with a few friends to hang out at Navy Pier and I promise you it will have an affect. A lasting affect.

2 sides to every coin, now little johnny who caved to peer pressure and smoked a joint with his friends has an arrest record for 1 joint. Now when he fills out a job application he has to mark that he has a criminal record every time, he now looks forward to being promoted to head fry cook as no serious job wants to hire a criminal...

Same pot head shit will go through the system over and over again, getting 9/10 of his charges dropped, whether it's another arrest or a ticket he could care less. Currently the law is the way you want but it certainly doesn't appear to be working, I don't see kids or adults who want to smoke fearing arrest and I've never had to struggle with a pot head, they just say 'awww mannn' when you walk up on them.

 

[1497]

Quit wasting time and law enforcement resources on weed. Pot smokers aren't going to quit, the gateway drug theory is bullshit; an abuser will find his own way down the hole regardless of the drug of choice. Think about the overall effect decriminalization of pot would have. Tax it, control the sale like alcohol and put the criminal weed networks out of business. Not much incentive for distributors to continue their enterprise when the profit dries up. And by the way, I don't partake in the herb, but really don't care one way or the other if you want to. We as a country have bigger issues that require our attention. The casual weed smoker is not one of them.