Runs hot when stuck in traffic

[tarafied1]

My 67 has a 4 core copper/brass repop rad for a 428. It's been in the car since the 460 swap back in the early 90's. I'm running a mild 429 with 10.5:1 CR and a SCJ cam, MSD ignition at about 32 total 14 initial timing. I have a 190 T stat and a stock/rebuilt water pump. I put the stock crank pully back on when I was having electrical issues so the water pump runs at stock speed. I dont have room for a mechanical fan or a puller fan. I have a 1600 cfm pusher and its controlled by a T stat. On at 185 and off at 160 if I remember correctly.
The problem, when stuck in traffic or say a line to get in a huge car show, the temp climbs and the 13lb cap starts to spit, I have a overflow bottle but it spits around the cap. I'm currently running 50/50 antifreeze. I dont have a real gauge with numbers, just the factory gauge with an H and C but the engine doesn't seam to "overheat" as it runs fine but the spitting coolant isn't a good sign and the gauge approaching the H is not good either. The pusher fan doesn't cover the whole rad. When running down the road the temp is in the middle or low on the gauge. I rarely ever sit still so I havn't noticed the issue but at the 45th I worried I would overheat. Once the car started moving the temp would come down. I've read that higher pressure will raise the coolants vapor point and increase its ability to absorb heat. I also read thru Dave's post and saw that you guys were concerned with using higher pressure. Also straight water is better for heat transfer but needs an additive like WaterWetter. I was thinking dual fans would help cover more of the rad and flow more air which seams to be the issue but they are all pullers. I know a pusher isnt as efficient but I have no option there. I know the rad isn't the isse as I never run hot when normal driving or even smokin the tire and such, just sitting still.
So what do you all think< higher pressure cap? Straight water? Bigger pusher? 160 or 180 T stat? all of the above?

 

[Midlife]

Two things:
(1) If coolant is spitting out the cap and you have a coolant recovery system, that tells me that your cap is bad. Replace it.
(2) Pusher fans are notorious for not being nearly as efficient as puller fans. Why? Pusher fans actually block air flow due to the fan blades being in front of the radiator, so the amount of air flow is less than if the blades were in back. If they were in the back, at least all of the air has to pass through the radiator before it reaches the fan.

 

[AzPete]

Not sure but shouldn't you have a higher CFM for it being the only fan? Do not go to a lower temp t-stat. You will have more problems. The pusher does block some but that would be more of a problem when the fan does is not running.

 

[daveSanborn]

Craig,

Having recently explored all options in regard to overheating issues, let me offer you this.

1. A larger capacity AL radiator. Get the biggest sucker in there that you can fit without cutting wholes in your fender aprons! Larger coolant capacity = easier cooling.

2. Why can't you fit a mechanical fan onto the snout of the water pump? You wouldn't be able to use the typical spacer, but it looks as if you have enough room. You won't need more than in inch of room between the front face of your existing water pump pulley and the rear side of the radiator. Are you sure there's not enough room? A mechanical fan will ALWAYS outperform an electric one when it comes to moving air.

3. You need to push more air than 1600 cfm. Joe's dual SPAL fan setup pushes close to 3000 cfm.

 

[tarafied1]

Dave,
I have about an inch at the water pump but the angle of the engine would cause the fan to be into the radiator at the bottom. I was hoping I could make this radiator work since it's fine cruising but I have had more occasion to be in traffic and i don't want to cook the motor. Maybe a bigger, more cfm pusher will solve the problem?

 

[daveSanborn]

Well, since the mech. fan seems to be a no-go, I'd fit the largest flowing electric pusher up front that I could. Check Summit Racing's on-line store. You're looking for dimensions first and them CFM's. Expect to pay for the better units.

If this isn't enough, ditch the old 4 core and go with a larger (lengthwise) aluminum 2 core with 1+ inch tubes. This will undoubtedly require you to fabricate mounting brackets, but such is the nature of the beast when stuffing in a 429 sized motor.

 

[68EFIvert]

I agree with Dave. You may want to consider an air foil as well. It doesn't seem to do much for my car but it may help some.

I started to have cooling problems as well. I have to have a fan with only 3.25" clearance so my choices are limited. I think my current fan is about 1800-2000 cfm. My car got up to almost 250 yesterday while in trafic but quickly went to 195 (t stat temp) when I got on the highway. I was looking at a Zirgo fan tonight that puts out 3000 cfm but is 3.5" deep. I think I will buy it and hope I can offset it to create the clearance I need at the crank pulley. I just had to get the blower with an 8 rib pulley didn't I? :expl

My next option is to get a wider aluminum radiator which is much more expensive since I have to have the inlet/outlet tubes modified to work with my tight clearances.

 

[Fast68back]

Why not use a dual puller setup like I have, the fans are offset allowing the room for the waterpump pulley.

 

[tarafied1]

I've only got an inch max at the pulley between the radiator and waterpump pulley. It's only 3/4" counting the bolt heads. I'd love to use that set-up but I dont think it will fit in there unless I do like Dave suggested and get a 2 row AL radiator. $$$!!!
I also looked up the spec on the fan I have, it's rated at 2500 cfm which is more than I thought. However its only 16" and the radiator is 24" wide and 17" tall. I did find a Flex-a-Lite dual pusher with two 12" (2500 cfm total) fans. Think that would do the trick? Same cfm's but more surface area...

 

[IMachU]

Why not use a dual puller setup like I have, the fans are offset allowing the room for the waterpump pulley.

Now THAT is the setup I want in my 65!! I would also like an interior switch installed so I can run 1 fan with the car off for those really hot days.

 

[mach514]

I have similar problems with my 514 except I have the monster custom built aluminum radiator, dual pusher fans, each putting out over 2,000 cfm, they cover 90% of my radiator. I run straight water and water wetter. we have too much motor and no air flow around them it's a furnace under the hood. I actually have the opposite problem, mine will warm up on the freeway, ( i think it's because the fans are blocking the natural air flow) and then when you get off of the freeway she cools back down. I'd try adding a second fan or maybe a shroud on your existing to contain the air flow, I don't know if the water and water wetter combo will make a huge difference, and I'd be careful about increasing the pressure of your radiator cap it tends to stress the whole system.
I've actually been thinking of installing vents in the back of my hood to help release the built up heat in the engine compartment, similar to the new shelby GT500's.

 

[mach514]

there is one more thing I thought about, they made a short snout water pump for the 429's early on that was T-bird specific, that would allow more clearance from your radiator. it would also require a different pully to get your belt alignment but it might allow the use of an original fan blade.

 

[tarafied1]

Thanks for the input. I know it gets real hot under the hood. I too have been kicking around the idea of vents in the hood. I've seen some on the 67 & 68 Shelbys. I don't want to repaint my hood so I thought about putting vents in the aprons under the hood springs to vent heat into the wheel wells...
I did go to 75% water and 25% antifreeze with water wetter and a 16 lb cap. I've been in traffic in 97 degree heat with no boil over. Still pushes the upper end of the gauge but not overheating. I knew about the short water pump but have not ever been able to find one.

 

[Jonk67]

Shorter water pump was my first impulse, then you could run a fan shroud and clutch fan or have room for a large electric if you prefer but I think the pusher fan will never get the results a puller with shroud will. I can't imagine the pusher will give you the same effect of pushing air around the motor under the hood like the puller does for two fold cooling.

I used rockauto to do some numbers searching as they also have links that open that show pics and year/model application for each part#. I looks like (from the pics) the Tbird 429 for '70 is the shorter pump compared to the '68-'69 which looks taller, came in other models also (Galaxie 500, LTD, etc.). The '70 is offered new by Cardone #5521117 $35, reman. $24 and the '68-69 is $79/$41 so not overly expensive. I did a quick search of O'reillys and they show some of these, even if they don't have them on the shelf they can get them next day - no charge- so you can compare them on the counter (I think they're called Checker's in some areas? don't know where you are). You could then take measurements at the snout to see what depth pulley you need, at least this way you could find the right pulley, WP, fan, shroud and have everything on hand before disassembly.

Another idea I had was to run two smaller puller electric offset in the lower left corner, upper right corner but you'd have to fab some type of shroud to collect as much area as possible.
Let us know what you do for a fix, that 429 looks nicely set in there, clean install, I'm impressed and never would have guessed it would fit so well.
Jon

 

[tarafied1]

Thanks for all the input and help on the pump. I am in the South (just North of Nashville) so we have O'Riellys. I have all the parts to install PS, I just need to rebuild the valve and cylinder and maybe replace the hoses. Once I get that done I neeb to mount the PS pump. The brackets I have are for the 71 429SCJ Mustang as well as the pulleys. They use the standard water pump. I may do something like the photo below and move the rad forward for more room.

 

[Dne']

Thanks Rick!

Well, Thanks to Rick for his post on this thread, and his superior supreme being advice :wor, I purchased the Griffin radiator for my C4, and the cool Dual elec. fans! :mj Purchased from Old air. OMG, the guy that I ordered from really wanted to sell me his AC system! But I bought one already and it's 75%installed, He says, "take it out!" :rofl "NO", I say! My husband would shoot me! :bike
thanks Rick!
dne'

Why not use a dual puller setup like I have, the fans are offset allowing the room for the waterpump pulley.

 

[Fast68back]

Re: Thanks Rick!

Well, Thanks to Rick for his post on this thread, and his superior supreme being advice :wor, I purchased the Griffin radiator for my C4, and the cool Dual elec. fans! :mj Purchased from Old air. OMG, the guy that I ordered from really wanted to sell me his AC system! But I bought one already and it's 75%installed, He says, "take it out!" :rofl "NO", I say! My husband would shoot me! :bike
thanks Rick!
dne'

LOL, I totally forgot about the hard sell they made on the AC. How high did he go on the discount? I think he was up to about 15% when I bought my fan and radiator.

 

[Dne']

discount?

I didn't even ask about what it would cost for the AC from them! I had to ask how much my bill was for the rad/fan setup! lol His name is Rick also, and he was very nice I must say! and the price, ouch! lol ok ok, I'll have a quality setup! :gs

LOL, I totally forgot about the hard sell they made on the AC. How high did he go on the discount? I think he was up to about 15% when I bought my fan and radiator.

 

[Rorin67]

I may do something like the photo below and move the rad forward for more room.

That is totally the way to go. Everyone just assumes that the radiator NEEDS to stay in its current spot, but you've got TONS of room to move it around up there. Move it toward the front a bit, move it to the side a bit - whatever - and it's always fine. As long the radiator fins can still be seen through the radiator support opening, you're good to go. Just requires a little cutting and bending to make custom brackets, but that's simple enough. If your existing hoses won't work anymore, just get different hoses. It's still cheaper than purchasing a high $$$ thin fan that you "hope" will work.

I put the 2-speed Taurus fan on the '67. That sucker (no pun intended!) is huge, so I had to offset the radiator a little to the drivers side. Now instead of the fan motor interfering with the water pump pulley, the fan motor is now next to the water pump pulley. Easy fix, it works great, and all for under $75!

Here's a shot of the "offset" radiator:

Another shot - notice that the fan motor is now next to the pulley, instead of them being in line with each other:

I see this thread is kinda old, so what did the OP end up doing?
:craz

 

[tarafied1]

I see this thread is kinda old, so what did the OP end up doing?

I did go to 75% water and 25% antifreeze with water wetter and a 16 lb cap. I've been in traffic in 97 degree heat with no boil over. Still pushes the upper end of the gauge but not overheating.

thanks for all the input!