TCP R&P... manual or power, that is the question...

[steveh326]

would like to install a Rack & Pinion unit in my car while it's blown apart for repairs. Car currently has stock GT power steering. Was thinking TCP power R&P, but the dang KRC pump adds a lot of $ to the overall cost, and it clutters up the engine bay and I'm all about clean. But I'm 55 and no spring chicken, so I'm afraid I'd regret not getting power. Will be running 17" wheels and the widest tires I can fit on the front. Think pro-touring car setup without the mega-motor.

I guess I already know the answer (man up, spend the extra dough and get power R&P) but would like to hear opinions either way. thanks

 

[Horseplay]

First off, you can buy the KRC stuff directly from them and save a ton over what TCP would charge you for the same parts. Secondly, outside of parking lots, you don't really need the power assist. Having said that, I switched gears from the TCP and instead elected to go with a power box set-up from Borgeson. Bought right, you can get all the parts needed for about a third of the TCP rack (<$700).

 

[steveh326]

thanks for the info... I debated the borgenson box instead of R&P, but after talking to a mustang owner at a cruise in who put a R&P on his car told me it was hands down the best thing he had done to his car, it's been an itch I gotta scratch. great idea tho to go directly to KRC, I thought I had to go thru one of the vendors to get the pump.

thinking now too I can spread out the expense a little. I wanted to put the rack in soon while the engine is out and access is good, but the pump can wait a few months until I get closer to getting on the road, so maybe that can help my budget a little.

 

[chillininnh]

I have the manual TCP rack and though the car is not quite on the road, it is yard driveable. The steering takes a good deal of effort in slow speed situations. If I was you I'd be springing for the power rack, oh and I'm 41. :roll

 

[Horseplay]

Talk to Shaun at Street or Track about your KRC needs. I know he's a vendor and can probably get you a pretty good deal.

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Hi!

I went with TCP's manual unit in my '65 289 about 15,000 miles ago. The car uses 205 60 15 front tires and 225 rears, with an aftermarket 14 inch steering wheel. There are only a couple of situations where the effort is really high (parallel parking and moving back and forth with foot lightly on brake in and out of the tight garage space where I park), and while I love the simplicity of manual, I think most people would definately prefer power. There are two other reasons for going power: One is reduced wear on the two u-joints in the linkage, the other is that I think power will cut down on some of the road vibration you get through the TCP unit. I moved slightly down to the 205s on the front, and fitted a Borgeson vibration dampener u-joint to the upper u-joint. That seems to have taken care of any wear issues, and made the system much smoother and less harsh. These are issues that TCP needs to address-- others have had these sorts of problems, and before I got everything adjusted (through my own hard work and experimentation) I was getting a little peeved at all the problems. One other thing that TCP recommends, and that I definately would do, is keep working with alignment to get about 3 to 4 degrees positive caster. This is a HUGE help, yet it takes a dedicated alignment shop to work to get it.

Cheers,
/s/ Chris

 

[Fast68back]

Talk to Shaun at Street or Track about your KRC needs. I know he's a vendor and can probably get you a pretty good deal.

That's where I got my KRC pump, great service and a great deal, only complaint was I didnt get a SorT sticker with my order........

 

[steveh326]

First off, you can buy the KRC stuff directly from them and save a ton over what TCP would charge you for the same parts. Secondly, outside of parking lots, you don't really need the power assist. Having said that, I switched gears from the TCP and instead elected to go with a power box set-up from Borgeson. Bought right, you can get all the parts needed for about a third of the TCP rack (<$700).

Terry - after your post above, I went back and gave the Borgenson another look... I can get the whole setup from CJP for around $800... everything included that I need, and I can keep my stock column for now. That would really free up precious funds for other stuff I need... I am just about convinced to do a 180 on my previous thoughts and go this route. The linkage connections to the box also look simpler than the R&P, which in my mind would be a better thing for several reasons... thank you for the advice.

Someone else posted above about a smaller steering wheel... I forgot about that aspect, I went to a smaller LeCarra wheel too, so power is definately the way to go for me, especially if my wife ever takes the car for a spin, even if OK for me, it's doubtful she would enjoy driving it if it has manual steering.

Many thanks to all for the great advice...

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Hi:

Please let us know about how the Borgeson system works out. Also, be sure to get as much positive caster as you can. That is a huge help no matter what steering system you have, and is something that is often overlooked (people confuse it with camber and toe in/out).

Good Luck,
/s/ Chris Kennedy

 

[steveh326]

Hi:

Please let us know about how the Borgeson system works out. Also, be sure to get as much positive caster as you can. That is a huge help no matter what steering system you have, and is something that is often overlooked (people confuse it with camber and toe in/out).

Good Luck,
/s/ Chris Kennedy

will do , just don't be in a hurry... gonna be a WHILE before it's anywhere near driveable... getting ready to order kit from CJ Pony now. I got the TCP control arms with the built in shelby drop. when the time comes, I imagine it will take some trial and error to get the alignment right. I was under the impression that positive caster made it harder for the steering to cener itself after a turn? I could be wong, I have a lot of learning to do on the alignment stuff.

 

[Grabber70Mach]

I had thought about the Borgeson setup but having serious second thoughts about it. Seems several are having issues with this setup, look on 69Stang.com

Here is one

http://www.1969stang.com/mustang/forum/ ... php?t=9670

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

 

[steveh326]

I had thought about the Borgeson setup but having serious second thoughts about it. Seems several are having issues with this setup, look on 69Stang.com

Here is one

http://www.1969stang.com/mustang/forum/ ... php?t=9670

Sent from my DROID BIONIC using Tapatalk

I read thru the 1st 3-4 pages of that post, and didn't see anything to scare me off. the Borgeson is a proven unit, and as long as everything hooks up,any issues should be fixable. FWIW I also read of some having shimmy, vibration or other issues with the TCP and FR R&P units. Sometimes the internet is a great and powerful thing, magnifying any real or perceived issues.

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Hi!

I had some of the shimmy/vibration issues with the TCP unit. I think ALL these re-engineered systems have some issues and it can take some time and effort to get things dialed in. With the TCP rack, it took a lot of time and work to get it right. Are you sure you really want to try their upper control arms? I know having the "Shelby Drop" without drilling is an inticing prospect, but there are lots of adjustments on the TCP arms, they are expensive and could be a, well, mess to get right. Have you tried Opentracker for this part, or it might be best just to keep it stock. You are right that positive caster increases steering effort, but you are going to power steering anyway and positive caster greatly increases good tracking of the front end.

Regards,
/s/ Chris

 

[Grabber70Mach]

I read thru the 1st 3-4 pages of that post, and didn't see anything to scare me off. the Borgeson is a proven unit, and as long as everything hooks up,any issues should be fixable. FWIW I also read of some having shimmy, vibration or other issues with the TCP and FR R&P units. Sometimes the internet is a great and powerful thing, magnifying any real or perceived issues.

I agree about the internet. But if you only read 3-4 pages, most of his issues are talked about later. Hope it works out for you, keep us posted.

 

[chillininnh]

Hi!

I had some of the shimmy/vibration issues with the TCP unit. I think ALL these re-engineered systems have some issues and it can take some time and effort to get things dialed in. With the TCP rack, it took a lot of time and work to get it right. Are you sure you really want to try their upper control arms? I know having the "Shelby Drop" without drilling is an inticing prospect, but there are lots of adjustments on the TCP arms, they are expensive and could be a, well, mess to get right. Have you tried Opentracker for this part, or it might be best just to keep it stock. You are right that positive caster increases steering effort, but you are going to power steering anyway and positive caster greatly increases good tracking of the front end.

Could you be more specific about the problems you had with the TCP manual and share your solutions? I am at a place in my build where making changes to me rack setup would be much easier now than later. I did read that you swapped out the column u-joint for a Borgesen vibration dampener u-joint, anything else??

Regards,
/s/ Chris

 

[steveh326]

I agree about the internet. But if you only read 3-4 pages, most of his issues are talked about later. Hope it works out for you, keep us posted.

ok will read the whole thread when I get time to see how bad I might be screwed or what I might be up against. if my luck goes the way it usually does, I'll be pretty screwed... Thanks for the info and the heads up.

 

[Chris Kennedy]

Could you be more specific about the problems you had with the TCP manual and share your solutions? I am at a place in my build where making changes to me rack setup would be much easier now than later. I did read that you swapped out the column u-joint for a Borgesen vibration dampener u-joint, anything else??

Regards,
/s/ Chris

Hi:

Well, I went through a step by step approach and first eliminated any rotor imbalance, wheel bearing or alignment issues as the problem. I was pretty sure they weren't the problem, and in fact they weren't. Next, I got the Borgeson dampener u-joint as the problem almost felt a little like similar issues with Jeep front ends, and the Borgeson dampener u-joint is often a help for that. The unit enabled me to determine that the shimmy was not a balance problem (basically the Borgeson unit tightened everything up as the standard u-joint had developed some play) as the problem would come and go over different types of road surfaces at the same speed (I had also had the tires road force balanced a number of times). The unit also really improves the system by absorbing a good bit of the shock the TCP unit transmits---it feels much more like a good factory rack and pinion system does on modern cars. Incidentally, I would've gotten a second dampener u-joint to replace the lower one, but the size is not made. I then went back through my records and determined that the problem did not develop until I went to 225 60 15 tires at the front (I had been moving slowly up from 205s to match the rear size). So, what I did was to go back to the 205s, and that ended the problem. What you DO get is still a good bit of road vibration on some surfaces, not all. I describe this as a slight kick in the wheel on various surfaces, and while I wish it wasn't there, it's not a shimmy. It also seems to be less on cooler days (go figure) . So, I think the ultimate problem was that on my particular car going to 225 60s on the front caused the TCP unit to experience sort of an harmonic style of vibration that felt like a shimmy. Other cars may not have the problem, but mine did. My guess is that you may get less of this problem with the power units, as they may absorb some of the vibrations. I think TCP needs to do some additional development work and definately offer both tougher u-joints and the dampening u-joints. One good thing I have noticed is that the Borgeson joint has not developed any play, and it's been about 2,000 miles since I put it on. The total driven on the TCP rack is about 13,000 or so. Generally, what I have found in working on and modifying cars is that if you really are interested in driving your car in the real world instead of hauling around a cruise night queen is that these re-engineered "wonder devices" which all the magazines and websites fawn over all need some additional work to get dialed in properly, and the TCP rack is no exception (and, in my case it wasn't so much re-doing anything with the unit, itself, as it was working with tires, u-joints etc.). That's why I suggested that the gentleman who started this thread might just want to keep the stock upper control arms and not bother with the TCP units with all their many adjustments. Unless he has some special purpose for the car those just seem like an adjustment/alignment nightmare in the making. Hope this helps!

/s/ Chris

 

[Horseplay]

Couple things about the Borgeson. Number one, wait until CJ's has a 15% off sale and then buy it. That's where I grabbed mine parts. Box, coupler and shaft delivered for $570. I'm going to go with a KRC pump down the road. CJ's has these sales a few times a year, at least. It's worth waiting for one.

Number two, I read everything there is on the net about this set-up and still do. There is nothing there to be overly concerned about. The only real issue I saw anyone have was on a 69 (i believe) and the guy started hacking up his frame because the box wouldn't sit right or something...which told me all I needed to know about his opinion. There are lots of guys who have installed them and are very happy with the way they perform. I wish I could tell you I am one but my project is not to that point yet.
The tech is obviously proven. The only concern one might have is header clearance as the front corner of the box extends out a tiny bit more than the stock unit. Unless you are shoehorning a 351 into a 65/66 this shouldn't be an issue. Even then it is very doable. That is what I am doing and I have ZERO concerns.

 

[Horseplay]

One more thing I just remembered. Borgeson will buy your original steering box from you. Standard box gets you $65.

 

[steveh326]

One more thing I just remembered. Borgeson will buy your original steering box from you. Standard box gets you $65.

thats good to know, thanks. I am committed now, I will just have to hopefully power thru any issues. with everything else I need to do to this car, I just could not swing the extra coin right now for the TCP R&P, as much as I wanted to.