Some of you probably saw my efforts at putting the '90 5.0 HO/AOd into my 66 stang last summer. Well, I tried to go efi at the same time then finally gave up on the efi and put the old weiand intake/edelbrock back on. I could not get the efi part to work right for some reason and just ran out of patience. In the process of installing the weiand intake, I grabbed the '90 water oulet that bolts up to the intake for the upper water hose. I also grabbed the dang long assed bolts that went with the '90 outlet...you know where this is going. Yep, I cracked one of the holes where the bolts went into. Cracked it bad too, when I got in a hurry and used an air ratchet to zip it into the hole. It bottomed out and cracked the housing part that it attaches too. So, I shoved some silicone into the hole with a short bolt and everything was okay until a few days ago it started leaking. So, I have to get another intake to go with the carb. Stuff like this just pisses me off sometimes... :beat The local shop has a professional products dual plane intake and I am wondering if any of you have tried one of these before? I am tempted to try the efi stuff again but don't feel like getting into a long drawn out episode with that mess again.
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Well, just damn!
- Thread starter gwstang
- Start date
Jonk67
Well-Known Member
Sounds like an $ lesson learned, I did something similar years ago and now test fit my bolts for bottoming first on most everything. I've never used my air ratchet to put anything together that I can think of, just to take stuff apart that was locked too hard to get loose with just a ratchet. Slows things down but breaking stuff slows it down even more and always costs more.
Good luck if you try the EFI again, I don't have the time to learn what all the relays, computers and sensors do and how to trouble shoot them to find out which one is making it surge or run rich, etc. I've read too many posts of trying to figure it out when it doesn't work right. I have a friend that built an FFR Cobra replica that was embarrased to give anyone a ride for a year due to sputtering, someone pointed out that 2 of his L/R sensor wires? may be switched, he swapped them and it ran great - a year like that and the wiring looked the same he said. The whole point of these classic cars to me is simplicity, once you start introducing modern electronics for the engine that goes out the window. I've broken down 1/2 dozen times and was up and running in 15 min. -air>fuel>spark = runs, not so with computers, relays and sensors in the mix.
No experience with the PP intake, sorry.
Jon
Good luck if you try the EFI again, I don't have the time to learn what all the relays, computers and sensors do and how to trouble shoot them to find out which one is making it surge or run rich, etc. I've read too many posts of trying to figure it out when it doesn't work right. I have a friend that built an FFR Cobra replica that was embarrased to give anyone a ride for a year due to sputtering, someone pointed out that 2 of his L/R sensor wires? may be switched, he swapped them and it ran great - a year like that and the wiring looked the same he said. The whole point of these classic cars to me is simplicity, once you start introducing modern electronics for the engine that goes out the window. I've broken down 1/2 dozen times and was up and running in 15 min. -air>fuel>spark = runs, not so with computers, relays and sensors in the mix.
No experience with the PP intake, sorry.
Jon
"The whole point of these classic cars to me is simplicity, once you start introducing modern electronics for the engine that goes out the window. I've broken down 1/2 dozen times and was up and running in 15 min. -air>fuel>spark = runs, not so with computers, relays and sensors in the mix."
That's an excellent point about simplicity. Even though I have a petronix 2 module in the distributor and it has broken on me 2 times, I was able to throw the points/cond. back on in about 20 min. and rolling right on. I would like to try the efi sometimes...but just not right now. My arse is still sore from the last time without lube....lol. I still have the efi fuel pump and setup on there, just had to add a regulator for the carb to work. It would not take very much to throw the upper/lower intake on with the injectors. The computer is still behind the glove box and the wiring is sticking out of the firewall so it's really ready to go except for the other sensors/dist/coil etc would have to be re-installed. I hate the wiring diagrams...ughhhh. :dh
That's an excellent point about simplicity. Even though I have a petronix 2 module in the distributor and it has broken on me 2 times, I was able to throw the points/cond. back on in about 20 min. and rolling right on. I would like to try the efi sometimes...but just not right now. My arse is still sore from the last time without lube....lol. I still have the efi fuel pump and setup on there, just had to add a regulator for the carb to work. It would not take very much to throw the upper/lower intake on with the injectors. The computer is still behind the glove box and the wiring is sticking out of the firewall so it's really ready to go except for the other sensors/dist/coil etc would have to be re-installed. I hate the wiring diagrams...ughhhh. :dh
Are the long bolts needed for the 90° thermostat housing? I'm using one on my 351w and used the same bolts as the original 45° used. Anyways, rather than throwing the intake away you could try installing a helicoils the full depth in the cracked bolt hole. I don't have a picture to see if it's cracked on both sides or just one side. You could also pull it and take it to a local welding place and have them weld it (aluminum rods) if you want to go that route.
daveSanborn
Active Member
This sounds exactly like me talking 3 years ago. I was VERY nervous about forgetting all of my tried and true experience with conventional induction and switching over to EFI. Honestly, and I even admitted it at the time, I was afraid of the unknown. WTF is an IAC or MAF sensor?
Having concoured this fear and making the switch to EFI was probably one of the best decisions I've ever made working on these old cars.
EFI is WAY simpler than you think it is. Throttle response between a carb and EFI can't be compared. Two classic Mustang owners have driven my EFI car and both now regret running carbs in their car's.
68EFIvert
Well-Known Member
I have to agree with Dave on this one. There is a learning curve but once you understand the sensors it seems to make sense. The biggest thing I got wrong initially was the BAP which reads barometric pressure for altitude changes. Well there is a port on there that look like a vacuum port. I hooked it up to the engine and had some serious surging issues. Rember my car has a blower so under Idle it was reading like it was on Mt Everest and when it came under boost it was like it was 10,000 feet below sea level. Once I found that problem the car ran great. Pretty damn frustrating at first though.
66gt350
Active Member
I also have to agree with Dave and Darrel on efi. I was very nervous when it came to the spaghetti wiring and sensors. But when I had it laid out on the living room floor with several wiring diagrams, it all made sense.
I won't go back to a carb on the fastback -- efi is just way too much fun.
I won't go back to a carb on the fastback -- efi is just way too much fun.
I disagree with the last three for a number of reasons:
1) It's a steep learning curve, and we're not all patient enough to endure it. We want to enjoy our cars sooner than later.
2) It's expensive. It costs way more to get an EFI setup installed and working than does a carb. There's wiring and either a laptop and cables or a diagnostic tool of some sort - neither of which is cheap.
3) It's not pretty. All those wires and sensors and such really clutter up an engine compartment. You just can't make one look good.
I had an '87 IROC with Tuned Port Injection on it. Now THAT's a sexy setup! It started and ran flawlessly. I eventually purchased a diagnostic tool and some software and started burning some chips to control fuel spark and mostly torque converter lockup. I did figure out how it all works and had good success with making the car work even better than when it did new. But, it took countless hours of research and fidlling to get there.
Point is, I understand what's involved in learning EFI and could do it if I wanted to. But, in my opinion the improved driveability not worth the trouble and expense. It's ugly, too
1) It's a steep learning curve, and we're not all patient enough to endure it. We want to enjoy our cars sooner than later.
2) It's expensive. It costs way more to get an EFI setup installed and working than does a carb. There's wiring and either a laptop and cables or a diagnostic tool of some sort - neither of which is cheap.
3) It's not pretty. All those wires and sensors and such really clutter up an engine compartment. You just can't make one look good.
I had an '87 IROC with Tuned Port Injection on it. Now THAT's a sexy setup! It started and ran flawlessly. I eventually purchased a diagnostic tool and some software and started burning some chips to control fuel spark and mostly torque converter lockup. I did figure out how it all works and had good success with making the car work even better than when it did new. But, it took countless hours of research and fidlling to get there.
Point is, I understand what's involved in learning EFI and could do it if I wanted to. But, in my opinion the improved driveability not worth the trouble and expense. It's ugly, too
Jonk67
Well-Known Member
PJ hit all the points that come to mind for me also, not knocking EFI at all, advised good luck to try again. I was just responding to the statement 'Well, I tried to go efi at the same time then finally gave up on the efi and put the old weiand intake/edelbrock back on. I could not get the efi part to work right for some reason and just ran out of patience.' I'd just rather spend time researching and learning on things that give a bigger bang for buck right now like suspension, brakes, etc.
I kinda like giving the pedal a pump before starting, reminds me of my '70 I had 20yrs. ago and takes me back. From what I can tell the EFI difference sounds more convenience than performance and as PJ mentioned the time and cost involved just aren't worth it to me at this point.
The longest breakdown I ever suffered was on a 6mo. old '05 Ford Escape while on vacation 500mi. from home, main computer went out, waited a week for one to come from Canada! lost a week of work and vacation, longest breakdown in the stang was 15min. I'm trying to keep as many computers and sensors off my classic as I can, don't mind a computer on my desk just not controlling my car.
Hope we didn't steal the OP's post, to each his own and drive onbj
Jon
I kinda like giving the pedal a pump before starting, reminds me of my '70 I had 20yrs. ago and takes me back. From what I can tell the EFI difference sounds more convenience than performance and as PJ mentioned the time and cost involved just aren't worth it to me at this point.
The longest breakdown I ever suffered was on a 6mo. old '05 Ford Escape while on vacation 500mi. from home, main computer went out, waited a week for one to come from Canada! lost a week of work and vacation, longest breakdown in the stang was 15min. I'm trying to keep as many computers and sensors off my classic as I can, don't mind a computer on my desk just not controlling my car.
Hope we didn't steal the OP's post, to each his own and drive on
bjJon
Hey Dave, I did get the new polished intake on today. But, the phenolic 1" spacer I am using is going to have to be removed as I cannot shut my hood. The new intake is quite a bit taller than the old Weiand was. Can a 1" phenolic spacer be cut with a table saw to make it a 1/2" spacer? It just feels like plastic or such. Thanks, Gary.
apollard
Active Member
"gwstang" said:
Hey, not Dave here- but I used to work at a plant that made phenolic laminates for machined parts - just like you have there. We used standard woodworking tools for cutting it, but you'll need a good carbide blade.
I would advise finding someone with a good table planer to cut it down for you, though. It will be hard as crap to get a good parallel surface with a table saw. I envision sealing problem if you don't plane it to thickness.
Jonk67
Well-Known Member
You might just want to see if you can find someone that wants to trade your 1" for a 1/2" and save the hassle or just buy a 1/2" and put your 1" up for sale, beter than possibly ruining your 1".
Jon
Jon
"I would advise finding someone with a good table planer to cut it down for you, though. It will be hard as crap to get a good parallel surface with a table saw. I envision sealing problem if you don't plane it to thickness."
yeah, I didn't think about the flatness when finished. Thanks for the info.
yeah, I didn't think about the flatness when finished. Thanks for the info.
"gwstang" said:
I also have a spacer like that and my breather kissed the hood on occasion. If I had a table saw, I would have used that to cut it down, but I do have a router and successfully shaved about 3/16" off of it with that. The trick is to clamp it between two boards that are PERFECTLY flush with the spacer so that there is support for the router when you wander off the sides. After the router I smoothed it out further with my bench belt/disc sander. Turned out great.
Well dang, I have a router and table for it. Thanks, gary.
I did finish up the intake today and while it looks pretty being polished and all...it is a high rise (well, higher than before by a good bit) and the idle must be set higher for that and I don't like it because of that. I have the timing at 12 deg btdc and adjusted the mixture screws...but the idle has to be around 1K to keep running when I put it into gear (aod auto) or it will try to die. I like the old weiand intake much better at this point. Haven't drive it yet, might run like a raped ape and make me grin....we'll see.
I did finish up the intake today and while it looks pretty being polished and all...it is a high rise (well, higher than before by a good bit) and the idle must be set higher for that and I don't like it because of that. I have the timing at 12 deg btdc and adjusted the mixture screws...but the idle has to be around 1K to keep running when I put it into gear (aod auto) or it will try to die. I like the old weiand intake much better at this point. Haven't drive it yet, might run like a raped ape and make me grin....we'll see.
apollard
Active Member
The router trick is a good one - I've used it before, but slap forgot about it. :doh
What manifold did you go with?
What manifold did you go with?