I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland -maybe NOT!!

[JeffTepper]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

Craig:

With as much fun as we had getting those motor mount bolts in, I suggest we look at alternatives to pulling the engine.

First, the least amount of work would be to find the "correct" manual trans manifold and swap it out;

Second would be headers that clear the stock Z bar and the steering box;

Third would be convert to Rack and Pinion steering and either a cable or hydraulic clutch;

Fourth would be to convert to an automatic trans(!!!);

Fifth, whatever alternative you decide to follow, removing one motor mount bolt at a time and pivot the engine on the remaining bolt would give additional room to work while still retaining some semblance of motor mount alignemnt.

Sixth, when are going back in????

Jeff

 

[cmayna]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

Michael,
Thanks for the support my friend and stay tuned.

Jeffrey,

1. I have already found a few correct exh mannies on line available. A little more research before I blindly buy one.

2. Apparently the passenger side manny was never changed from 70 thru 74 thus I'm pretty good to keep it in. They started pointing the exhaust more downward starting 71 for both manual and automatic application. I still need to confirm if in fact from 71+ the same manny was used for both manual and automatic. I have a feeling it is.

3. I do not want to go headers and feel I won't need to.

4. Go automatic? That would be so GO.......

5. As I told kbmwrs this am while laying under Shag I think I could remove the driver's manny by simply removing the steering box (thank GOD I did not install the steering column yet), disconnect the manny bolts and drop it down between the frame rail and motor. By pivot the motor on the RH motor mount would possibly give me a little more room but I have to consider if I'll be able to clean out the old copper gasket goop correctly and then apply the new goop to the new manny and wrestle it back up into place without smearing it all over everything before I get it into final resting place.

6. Keep in mind that I am swapping out the T5 shifter thus it the whole assembly was out not only could I do a much better job in replacing the manifold via a torque wrench, I could also swap out the shifter much easier.

7. We can all have a meeting of the NorCal minds about the options on my new party day called "yank and drop" which wont happen for a couple+ weeks.

Comment: I did re-look into the idea of modifying the Zbar's low arm location, etc, but I really don't any decent mod would work allowing the exhaust to squeeze between the lower Zbar arm and the steering box without reducing the pipe's diameter. Also the exhaust pipe would be right next to the steering box. Way too much heat for my likens. Thus why I have decided to do it right and find the correct manny.

 

[daveSanborn]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

Sorry to hear of your troubles Craig. I never would have guessed that the left side manifold differed between auto and manual trans cars.

Remember that it could always be worse....

After building my entire '66.... including paint..... on a custom one piece frame.... when I went to install the motor I found that the frame was ill-designed/built and the front frame rails were 1" too high. What a PITA that was...... I had to cut out the front frame rails and lower them 1" inch. It was a MAJOR step backwards!

 

[guruatbol]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

I understand your decision.

but I have to consider if I'll be able to clean out the old copper gasket goop correctly

OK, when you get the old mannie out, take some WD40 or carb cleaner or some kind of solvent you are comfortable with and spray it in the location of the goop, use 80 grit sand paper or a Scotch green pad, with a gloved hand clean it off with your hand. Steel woll or brass wool will work as well.

To reapply use a gloved hand and apply by hand. If you are careful and as detail oriented as I know you are, you should be fine!

Hang in the Craig. I wish I was there to help you!

Mel

 

[daveSanborn]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

I had a blown drivers side exhaust manifold gasket on my '70 351 4V. I disconnected, but couldn't remove the manifold from the car. I didn't try to unbolt the drivers side motor mount and lift the motor to gain clearance. There was BARELY enough room to get the old gasket off, clean the mating surfaces and re-install a new gasket. It can be done with the motor still in the car (at least in a '70 it can). While the manny is disconnected from the head it will be floating around in there and may scratch some shock tower paint. If the motor is only installed on it's mounts and not fully hooked up, it'll probably be a lot easier to just lift the motor out for an hour or so.

 

[johnpro]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

Nope, don't necessarily like the Hydraulic clutch set up. I'd rather consider modifying the Z bar. John of ORP also mentioned that this might be a choice but will take a lot of research and measuring. Yesterday I had already considered modifying the bar by pushing the lower arm closer to the motor to allow more space between the lower arm and the steering box. But when you do this, you distort the angle of the lower adjusting rod than connects between lower Zbar arm to clutch form.

I do NOT want to end up with a mickey mouse setup. If I need to swap out the manifolds I will do so and hopefully recoup some of my new costs by selling the current manifolds.

I'm not sure why you'd rather go with a pre-historic z-bar instead of a hydraulic setup, especially considering your current delima. Yes, the z-bar works, but it's a lot more pedal effort and has the problems that you are encountering now, when using a non-stock setup. A Cleveland in a '68 is far from anything original looking, so it's not like the hydraulic clutch would look out of place in such a modified car. I also don't understand someone's comment about you having the wrong clutch fork. You're running a T5 ... aren't you running a diaphragm type pressure plate and a late model fork? If so, the hydraulic would be easy to install.

If you're running the original style pressure plate and fork, then, yes, it's a much bigger project.

A decent hydraulic setup, I wouldn't consider Mickey Mouse. I should have let you drive Scary to see how the hydraulic clutch is in it. It requires about the same or less effort as my son's Honda.

 

[abrahamfh]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

Sorry to hear about the exhaust manifold issues Craig. That really sucks, but hey, it will give us another chance to get together.

Let me know when your ready and I will be there.

 

[69RestoRod]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

I should have let you drive Scary to see how the hydraulic clutch is in it.

I think you may have him convinced with that single statement right there. But then he'll want to pull the Clevo and stroke it afterwards.

 

[vamustang]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

Dang that sucks ! I think I have an extra Clev. exhaust manifold, but I cannot remember which side. I'm in Canada until Dec. 3rd, I will check when I get home. It's free to you if you have not fold anything by then.... Just let me know, Chris

+1 on the Hydralic clutch.

 

[Mach1Rider]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

This is a first for me for I have no one to blame but myself. Now I'm starting to understand what's it like being human. I should have studied more, asked more questions, etc. But "oh well"......

In a nutshell, these manifolds were last used with a automatic transmission. The exit is pointing pretty horizontally towards the rear. With the Zbar in relaxed position with the lower arm forward, the arm cuts right through the exhaust. This lower arm get's so close to the exit opening that there is no way to fit a small 90 degree pipe, etc. The pipe would also need to be crimped. This exit hole also faces someone outward aim very close to the steering box wanting to go between the steering box and the lower arm with a gap of about 1-1/2".

Here's my current set up. Note how horizontally the exhaust exits.

Here's a LH manifold on ebay supplied to me today by John of ORP. Note how it points more toward the ground:

exhaust manifold


Here's some pics I took today showing the interference:


See how it points somewhat towards the steering box?
[smg id=3558]


Another angle:
[smg id=3557]

Thus I am planning to either find a single LH manual transmission Cleveland 4v manifold or at worst case another set. No matter what I get, I'm going to be hosting yet another party but this time called "yank and drop" with us pulling the motor, swapping the manifold(s) and dropping the motor back in.

Crap!!! o

I just went out and looked at mine, and the equalizer bar is differant from yours.
The bottom of the bar where the rod to the clutch fork goes has a Z bend in it.
This will give you open space to attach the exhaust pipe to the manifold.

 

[crustycurmudgeon]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

Craig, is your Z bar an ORP reworked piece? If you end up having to get the later Z bar or go hydraulic clutch, and if your current Z bar is the same for '67, I would be willing to buy it from you. I'll be keeping the Z bar when I go to the T5.

Frank

 

[cmayna]

Re: I am very pissed at myself. Gonna have to pull the Cleveland

Frank,
According to my study, all I need to do is to swap out the original 68 Zbar and install a Boss 302 Zbar. If this is the case, then we can work out a deal on my ORP modified 67/68 Zbar setup. Stay tuned.

 

[cmayna]

As it stands after a fair amount of research, I might be able to use the current exhaust manifold and instead replace the Zbar from the original 67/68 setup to a Boss 302 Zbar. A lot more research before any final decision.

 

[69RestoRod]

A 70 mustang 351C Z bar wouldn't work? Figure it's be easier and cheaper to find. Aren't the frame rail dimensions the same from 68-70.

 

[gotstang]

A 70 mustang 351C Z bar wouldn't work? Figure it's be easier and cheaper to find. Aren't the frame rail dimensions the same from 68-70.

That's what I was thinking, I figure the deck height of a Boss302 motor would throw things out of whack, so you might be better off with a 351C unit?

--Armchair General out!

 

[garner67]

Frank,
According to my study, all I need to do is to swap out the original 68 Zbar and install a Boss 302 Zbar. If this is the case, then we can work out a deal on my ORP modified 67/68 Zbar setup. Stay tuned.

OK... thinking out of the box.

What about cutting and rewelding the exhaust outlet port facing down? Sure it wouldn't look exactly stock, but I bet you could get it looking pretty darn good. If you don't like it, you could just chalk it up to experience.

 

[Mach1Rider]

That's what I was thinking, I figure the deck height of a Boss302 motor would throw things out of whack, so you might be better off with a 351C unit?

--Armchair General out!

Thats is my thinking too, Wish I could have posted a better pic of my C set up but the hooker header is in the way.
The block side arm is different from what he has now and should fix the problem. :ide

 

[cmayna]

Michael,
I'd rather swap out mannies before doing that and if I have to do that, I'll try the D1ZE-9431-BA manny, but with all the studying I have done in the past couple days getting more input from a Cleveland forum and other Mustang parts suppliers, I think I'm heading in the right direction. It was really nice having KBMWRS over yesterday with his Mustang to give me another hands on opinion. We both think the Boss 302 zbar will work. Also as KBMWRS suggested, I'm going to invite my muffler guy over who happens to own a couple fastbacks as well and have him crawl under the car to confirm he has the space to make something fit.

KBMWRS will be at NPD on Sat and will pick the Boss 302 Zbar up for me. I'll go pay him a visit on Sunday and do a test fit that afternoon.

And to think how close to pulling the motor I got. Glad I stood back and puffed a fatty first. :lol

 

[69RestoRod]

And to think how close to pulling the motor I got. Glad I stood back and puffed a fatty first. :lol

Funny how that can put so many things into the correct prospective. Didn't know the z bar was a repop, good luck with the easier fix.

 

[Mach1Rider]

After looking at the Boss Z bar, its not going to work.

Just match it up to the 351's bar and you can see the differences of the lower bends of the arm location.

Just because I'm new here and feel like :dh