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Discussion in 'General Mustang Discussion' started by stang32, Apr 15, 2018.

  1. stang32

    stang32 Member

    i posted this years ago but wanted to repost to keep it active,

    OK, so here's the story, I know this guy, lives in putnam county, NY who bought a total rot box of a gt conv back a few years ago.it belonged to a fireman who had died @ 9/11. purchased from his brother. like i said a real rotted out car, only good for 1 thing, yup you guessed it.
    so the car sits in his yard for a year or 2 then it disappears, then a few weeks later the car apears in his yard w/new paint, & body 90% completed. in talking with him he first said, "yeah it was real hard & a lot of work but we restored this beauty back to its former glory" (with a smile on his face) well, in looking the car over a couple times I noticed some red flag items & asked him again about the work & who did it. finaly he told me, he bought a donor car from virginia that had been re-vinned by the state & he swapped the vin, drivetrain & all the GT equipment.
    I asked him if he felt that there was anything wrong with that & he said no why should he.
    well I have been thinking about it for some time & I decided I feel there is something wrong with it. I know if I were shelling out the money for a gt convertible, i would want the real deal.
    any thoughts as to how to get the word out on this car?

    By the way, I pulled a marti report on it, very rare, red on red j code w/3 speed. tilt away & console

    (don't ask me what I noticed because I do not want to say, if he finds out what is wrong, he will fix it.)

    im sure some unsuspecting person alreayd bought this thing but i hope they didnt take a bath
  2. Midlife

    Midlife Well-Known Member Staff Member Moderator

    Can you notify the DMV with an anonymous complaint or notice?
    Mach1Mark and c6fastback like this.

    KBMWRS What did the moron say today?

    A few years ago? I'd say its lost to the Mustang world now. Nothing to do but advise folks you know NOT to buy a red/red Vert GT....or at least check it out. The new owners know not of the switch.
  4. Horseplay

    Horseplay I Don't Care. Do you?

    Buyer beware. Up to the buyer to do his own homework and inspection. I'm not defending the scum who do such things but also not so sure it is the place of a third party to publicly "broadcast" their suspicions about a car or seller.

    As to the car, I think an argument can be made that a rare car was brought back to life...in a way. If all the details are corrected and, in fact, all the original GT bits have been installed how is it any different than a car built in a Ford plant? After all, back in '68 all Ford did was add the GT option parts to a standard car to produce one. In effect the same would have been done here.

    I have seen plenty of rebuilds of rotted old cars where literally less than say 10% of the original metal remained by the time the metal work was done. Are those cars any more "original" than the one written about here? If a VIN is not being created out of thin air but merely given a new life through a donor body I think I'm good with it.

    I'm not taking any sides. Just trying to view both sides.
  5. B67FSTB

    B67FSTB The NorCal dude from Belgium

    Same thinking here.

    KBMWRS What did the moron say today?

    Not defending the guy either but

    I agree that a car was saved. Yes it is George Washington’s axe. The handle was replaced twice and the head once but it sure is his axe
    tarafied1 and c6fastback like this.
  7. C6ZZGT

    C6ZZGT New Member

    The feds for sure have issues with tampering with a VIN.
  8. B67FSTB

    B67FSTB The NorCal dude from Belgium

    When transferring a vin from one to another car , when both cars are acquired legally , i don't see any harm.
  9. Horseplay

    Horseplay I Don't Care. Do you?

    Again, just adding to the discussion.

    If someone altered a VIN plate to change a base car into a GT, for example, I absolutely would agree that it was tampering. If someone who owned a car decided to junk the original shell and put its VIN onto another body they owned so as to "resurrect" the original where's the harm? They are not creating a new car simply keeping one alive, so to speak, by sacrificing the donor VIN (car). For me the key thing is the original "body" has to be destroyed so as never to be resurrected creating a duplicate scenario. To successfully make the transition as the OP detailed in this case the destruction has to happen as all the VIN containing sheet metal had to be grafted into the donor shell. The original body no longer holds any VIN identification so could never be resurrected. I see this as nothing more than restoration of a worthy car.

    Other areas along this same discussion could include guys grafting fastback roofs onto coupes. If they also tack on the apron metal carrying the VIN is that the same thing? Using a coupe to make a fastback is not the same as using the same body to resurrect a car...is it? For me that goes just a bit too far. If done just for the aesthetic I'm good if they try to market it as original crosses the line. What about putting an original VIN on a Dynacorn body? Very similar to the first scenario but if its not original Ford metal I balk here too. Gets very fine line.
  10. JeffTepper

    JeffTepper Well-Known Member

    It continues to boggle my mind that some folks will situationally justify VIN swaps when the ONLY reason to transfer a VIN to another car is to allow the car to be represented (and sold) as something it is not. Is's about more money. It's about greed, It is about fraud. When is the last time anyone saw a "T" code VIN swapped on to a different car? I suggest that was 3 weeks from never.
    Laurie S. and Mach1Mark like this.
  11. guruatbol

    guruatbol Always on vacation!

    We've had this discussion at previous Knott's shows.

    I both agree and disagree.


    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
  12. Horseplay

    Horseplay I Don't Care. Do you?

    Have to assume your post is in reply to mine given the timing. So I'll respond directly to yours.

    Not everybody is interested in making a dollar. Some might just want to save their car. One reason (and the reason I am supporting) is to keep a car "alive". If it is so far gone that the only way to "restore" it is to replace virtually every single inch of metal how is that any different than using a donor body instead of 100 repair panels? At what point does the complete metal replacement equal the use of a donor body? Its not all that uncommon to have to replace whole floors and rockers and firewalls and aprons and cowls and quarters and trunk floors and drop offs and taillight panels...in a single restoration. We've all seen it countless times. Why can we accept a car restored using 9/10ths of the metal as repair panels made in Taiwan but another original car used as the "donor" metal somehow becomes sacrilege? The second example is by far more original than the first simply by measure of factory made composition. Isn't it? At what point does a car stop being "original" as you replace rotted metal? If a restoration happens via donor body or imported sheet metal so long as there is only one vehicle sporting all the original VIN stamps what difference does it make? If my car were in an accident and the front end is a twisted mess and the aprons are in no way salvageable would I be committing fraud by cutting off the VIN stamps and sectioning them into new apron panels as I restored the car? I hope the response is no. So why would it not be along the same lines to similarly transfer the VIN stamped metal to an original Ford body in the same manner to repair/fix a badly damaged car?

    And why do we not see "T" codes saved in this manner? I would suggest because they are plentiful enough that easier restoration projects can be found. Simple as that. I think you would agree it plausible someone becomes more attached to a car of special character much easier than one more pedestrian.

    Fraud? It's only fraud if you swap the VIN and try to hide the fact. I will grant you there are people that do just that but that doesn't mean everyone has that intent.

    I have no skin in this game, thankfully, as my car is all original and as everyone knows never leaves my garage so little fear of accident and possible need of major repairs. I just think it a very interesting topic and thought this a good discussion to try and see it from all angles. I HATE the assholes who misrepresent cars and try to scam others but I don't think this subject is as clear as some might think is all.
  13. KBMWRS

    KBMWRS What did the moron say today?

    It is all on a case by case basis. No one should make a decision or criticism on what they or others have done based on one statement. Investigate and get more information.

    I also see how both arguments are valid. Nice discussion.
  14. blue65coupe

    blue65coupe Well-Known Member

    If someone has an AR-15 that was used in a murder and chucked the lower and replaced it with another lower would the gun then not be considered to be the weapon used? The gun contains a different serial number...
  15. blu67

    blu67 Well-Known Member

    My car is a prime example. Front end destroyed, cutting out the VIN and welding it into the Dynacorn inner fender structure like original. Not trying to fool anyone. Not trying to sell. It's just a body repair.

    I can see how some people could go to the extent of trying to forge an car authenticity. But wouldn't they have to change the VIN's on every other part of the car to match?
  16. RagTop

    RagTop Old Grumpy

    First of all, there isn't any reference to a GT in a first gen Mustang VIN. Second, I'd like to have a dollar for every overstamped K over a C or even an A on '65-'67 Mustangs I've seen at shows. If I were out to buy a factory GT, it would be my responsibility to confirm, to the best of my ability, that it was indeed a real GT by studying the identifying features and verifying that they are present. Otherwise, caviat emptor. BTW, anyone want to purchase a factory '69 GT convertible with a 428 and a top loader 4 speed? I should be able to have it ready in a couple of months.;)
  17. Mach1Mark

    Mach1Mark Ramrod extraordinaire Donator

    Our brothers at SAAC take a much more dim view of this practice. They call this type of 'repair' an AIR car. Say for example someone buys a real '65-'70 Shelby and its complete but the body is totally gone. There is not enough original sheet metal remaining to make it financially feasible to repair/restore the unibody. So, instead a suitable healthy donor is found and ALL the pieces of the Shelby are transferred to the donor. At this point the Shelby is 'reborn' but it never traveled through the AIR of the Shelby assembly line building. Yes, it is a unique Shelby Mustang and unless the switcheroo is disclosed the eventual new owner may or may not be made aware of the provinence of the car after paying big money for an original. Granted, if it was your grannys six cyl grocery getter no one would probably care. Its a slippery slope.

    This is reason all Ford VINS under the Shelby ID plate are kept secret. Ive seen one instance of Two identical GT350s with the same Shelby VIN but only one had the correct Ford VIN. Who do you sue to recover from the fraud? It could have been that the selling owner either may not known or not wanted a new owner to know the real story.
  18. Fst Blk

    Fst Blk Well-Known Member

    This t-code car you guys reference was exactly what I built. Shoot I bet those guys doing coupe to fastback conversions would pay through the teeth for a t-code vin and title...

    I agree with Terry on this. After replacing so much sheet metal on my restoration, I’m sure it failed to be a Ford. It was mostly Taiwanese lol.

    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    tarafied1 likes this.
  19. guruatbol

    guruatbol Always on vacation!

    I think these Coupe to FB conversions are doing the exact same thing!

    It isn't disclosed when they are sold and well that is just wrong!

    Sent from my Pixel 2 using Tapatalk
  20. Horseplay

    Horseplay I Don't Care. Do you?

    I am not a fan at all of coupe to fastback conversions as it has the potential to lower the value of an actual FB. Lots of folks really don't care about originality over the chance to own a FB. But if a buyer is not smart enough to quickly check a VIN stamp to make sure it is a true FB that is on them.

    Most of the conversions I have seen the VIN stamps were not swapped and the coupe (now FB) still carries its original VIN stamps and are titled as a coupe. In the same vein as in the original example, if everything is swapped over and a "new" FB wasn't created, just an old one reborn, I'm OK with it. I suppose though I could have seen a FB which was really a conversion complete with VIN swap and never knew it!

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