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News story....

"John Del" said:
Classic Recreations is under investigation for VIN plate swapping — i.e. taking the Vehicle Identification Number off of a junked car and attaching it to whatever you like — by the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations (OSBI). Though no charges have yet been filed, cars have been seized over what the OSBI is calling an ongoing investigation.
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Perhaps the perception of a "junked" car is also part of the problem. A car that has been "junked" requires a different titling process than a car that was in significant need of repair and rebuilt without officially being "junked."

Until this goes to court, if it even does, we can agree to disagree about the legality of actually transferring a VIN from one fender apron to another. And in context to what I am referring to, the transfer of a VIN from an original fender apron, on a car to which you own the title free and clear, to a specific replacement fender apron, to which you also legally own, as opposed to cutting out out a T VIN and replacing it with a K or any action involving stolen property.
 
One last thing to ruminate on and I'll shut up.


The Dynacorn replacement body shell is not "another" vehicle. It's a repair part, albeit a very large one.

VIN "swapping"..... taking the VIN from one vehicle and using it on another vehicle..... is without a doubt a crime, but when a Dynacorn shell is involved in the equation, there is only the one original "vehicle" involved.

From Dynacorn's own website we read that MSO paperwork will be provided with each shell aiding in the establishment of a state issued VIN.... or..... the VIN of an existing vehicle may be used instead. I assume that Dynacorn has legal counsel and has researched this thoroughly.
 
Maybe to avoid confusion, Dynacorn should produce the replacement part (shell) without the two front aprons. Then you have to weld your old ones on (which are shot so you really have to buy some new ones also and then cut your VIN off and weld them on the new aprons). Oh wait, that's basically the same thing, never mind.
:nta
 
"apollard" said:
Not to a lawyer. Trust me, I work with them all the time.
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Oh I believe you, I was being sarcastic as I bet that is the whole argument. Did CR commit fraud by putting Mustang VIN #'s on replacement shells? Very grey area I suspect...
 
"tarafied1" said:
Oh I believe you, I was being sarcastic as I bet that is the whole argument. Did CR commit fraud by putting Mustang VIN #'s on replacement shells? Very grey area I suspect...
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Fraud here would be about disclosure, right? Many people are upset about a Dynacorn body passed off as a "real" Mustang, and understandably so. But how many people, when selling a car, go to great lengths to disclose every part that was replaced with a non-original part? At what point is a car no longer a "real" Mustang?
 
"apollard" said:
I work with them all the time.
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You have our deepest sympathies. No one should be subject to that kind of punishment...IIRC, that's against the Geneva Convention!!!
 
"66gt350" said:
You have our deepest sympathies. No one should be subject to that kind of punishment...IIRC, that's against the Geneva Convention!!!
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It's OK. The big lie in law schools is the cash they supposedly will make. I get paid more than many of them(and I'm nor rich by any means). When they aggravate me too much, I just recall that fact and smile.
 
"AzPete" said:
Hey now, everything on my car is original.....johnpro said so....... :lol
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Yeah, right! LOL

It's definitely a slippery slope and I'm not sure where it stops. I guarantee you if that Factory 5 Cobra made it to California, and found out about, it would be confiscated. There was a big sting on those kinds of vehicles with phony VIN's on them out here, a couple years ago.
 
That is one thing that I always wondered about......how other states handle what one state cleared as good to register.

I do remember the Factory Five thing from a few years ago. The owner is a young military man so it could get interesting sometime, based on his assignments.....
 
I think the hobby just needs some Legal definition as to when and how a person or business can go about restoring our beloved Cars. I think SEMA should look into this case...anyone have any SEMA connections? SEMA has a division that tackles state laws, when it comes to laws pertaining to our collectible cars. If not, maybe we should start a defense fund for Jason!
 
The part about Dynacorn providing an MSO got me wondering about something. Does anything that is manufactured and sold in the U.S. have to come with an MSO? When a new Mustang is made at an assembly plant, Ford issues an MSO with the vehicle when it goes to a dealer (or wherever.) The MSO is then used when sold by the dealer to obtain a title by the buyer. I guess I've always associated the term 'MSO' only with new vehicles.

I understand that the Ford licensing of the replacement shells was done under the premise that it is a "replacement part", but it seems like they're splitting hairs and creating terms convenient to them. The fundamental issue, which not even State governments seem to want to nail down is which part or parts of a car identify it?
 
Good News.....Jason posted this on the E-Car forum last night..

Hello,

Well i didn't read or watch much due to the misinterpretation of people and the media.

I do want to say a few things to clear up some issues I see discussed.

1. We are NOT shut down.
2. The media has spun this out of control.
3. My family and I have been torn to pieces by incorrect statements by some of you and the media.
4. Thank you to all of you that have a heart and compassion and have supported me.
5. When your in the limelight and are somewhat successful people want to watch you hurt.
5. All of our cars and items are back in our possession

WE WILL PREVAIL!

Thanks again to all of you that supported
 
Its a "BIG" grey area and a lot is not clear. Thought I was going to get in trouble on one of mine. I noticed the VIN on the title didn't match what was on the car. So off to the DMV I went to see if I could get it changed. It seems that the person (who is the head of the office) left out one number when she entered the info. They sent a Special Agent to my house to examine the car. When he looked at the door (which was the first place he looked) for the VIN plate it wasn't there. He ask where it was and I told him that I had taken it off when I painted the door. He said that was a serious violation and I could be looking at felony charges. Long story short, he recovered the microfiche from Richmond and found that the DMV had left a number out. I guess I lucked out since he stated the numbers didn't match what was on the film and entered into the computer and it was the DMV's error (typo). While he was here I ask him several questions such as if you replace your drivers side door (with a different VIN) do you need to take the plate off and how much and what part of the car you need to start with in order to use what VIN. He offered no reply. I hope Jason gets things cleared. Its got be a horrible experience.
 
I have kept in touch with Jason since this started. My last text conversation indicated things were getting better.

He seemed upbeat as one could be throughout and never wavered.

Anyone questioning what a stand up guy he really is, know this, during the entire process he kept his people at work. He has also offered assistance to me personally in the way of rescuing my daughter that goes to school up there if need be.

Him, his family and his workers are welcome at my home anytime.
 
"67 evil eleanor" said:
Its a "BIG" grey area and a lot is not clear. Thought I was going to get in trouble on one of mine. I noticed the VIN on the title didn't match what was on the car. So off to the DMV I went to see if I could get it changed. It seems that the person (who is the head of the office) left out one number when she entered the info. They sent a Special Agent to my house to examine the car. When he looked at the door (which was the first place he looked) for the VIN plate it wasn't there. He ask where it was and I told him that I had taken it off when I painted the door. He said that was a serious violation and I could be looking at felony charges. Long story short, he recovered the microfiche from Richmond and found that the DMV had left a number out. I guess I lucked out since he stated the numbers didn't match what was on the film and entered into the computer and it was the DMV's error (typo). While he was here I ask him several questions such as if you replace your drivers side door (with a different VIN) do you need to take the plate off and how much and what part of the car you need to start with in order to use what VIN. He offered no reply. I hope Jason gets things cleared. Its got be a horrible experience.
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You mean the tag that says "for warranty information only, not for registration?"
 
Well, I for one am glad things are looking up for Jason. I've read his posts here and he seems to be a genuine guy. No, I've never met him, but his story he posted here says a lot about him.

Seems that we need some real definition on VIN/body/sheet metal replacement. Maybe with all these repo complete bodies available, the motor vehicle department will come out with some clear guidelines and catch up to our hobby soon.

Dynacorn and some of the other body manufacturers should be pushing them, instead of leaving it up to the end users of those repo bodies, they would probably sell a lot more bodies!
 
Re: News story.... UPDATED

As I expected......

CLASSIC RECREATIONS G.T.500CR BACK IN PRODUCTION
After weeks of accusations and red tape, Owner Jason Engel warns shops and enthusiasts: "Pay attention to what happened here, because it effects all of us."

Yukon, Okla. (Aug 9, 2010) – Custom coachbuilder Classic Recreations has had its vehicles returned and is back at work building 1967 Shelby G.T.500CR continuation cars after several weeks of confusion, red tape and accusations from local officials. The Oklahoma based shop, recognized by collectors and the automotive press for crafting some of the finest muscle cars in the world, was temporarily sidelined last month when false accusations from a disgruntled ex-employee led the Oklahoma State Bureau of Investigations to raid the shop looking for stolen equipment - of which absolutely none was found.

In the process of the investigation, state officials determined shop owner Jason Engel did not follow state guidelines during the restoration process by replacing damaged or rusted factory sheet metal on his Mustang builds with aftermarket components. A series of legal arguments over the definition of restoration protocol ensued, with the government stating that shop owners in Oklahoma cannot replace the factory sheet metal with aftermarket parts during the restoration process without re-titling the car.

"I have always been totally focused on quality and customer satisfaction, and we spare no expense when building a client their perfect dream car. Now the government wants to tell me how to run my business and which panels I can or cannot replace," says Engel. "Laws were created to protect people from car thieves, now the government is reinterpreting those laws to go after restoration shops, and it makes keeping classic cars on the road very difficult. If I can't replace a rusty door because the VIN can't be touched, that means rather than starting with a rough but restorable classic and transforming it into a beautiful supercar, I have to start with an essentially perfect car - which raises prices and upsets collectors."

As the CR crew gets back to work building Shelby Mustangs, the returned cars will be inspected, detailed and delivered to clients. Engel is extremely grateful for his clients' patience and understanding during this ordeal. Moving forward, new steps will be taken to ensure current interpretations of the law are met and this does not happen again.

"I want our story to serve as a warning to every shop owner and hobbyist out there: we need to take action to preserve our hobby and limit government intervention in the classic car world by defining what we can and can't do," Engel says. "What happened to me could happen to anyone. I run an honest business, employing over 20 people. We build beautiful cars for collectors. We are working with state legislators to pass a bill that clearly defines what a restoration shop is allowed to do so we're all on the same page, and we need your support. I am eager to speak with automotive journalists and fellow enthusiasts about my experience."
 
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