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Borgeson Power Steering System - Anyone Install One?

B

bravenrace

Member
I did last November, and have had nothing but problems ever since. Well, one problem in particular, and that is that the steering box has as much or more play in it than my factory power steering did. Getting rid of that play was the whole point in buying it. I've had two boxes in, sent them a video of the play, gone around and around with them and still don't have an answer. I'm starting to lose my patience.
I don't have time right at the moment to go into all the details, but thought I'd ask if anyone else has done the installation and how it went. I'd greatly appreciate ANY insight anyone can provide.
 
I have not installed mine yet. Get that out of the way upfront.

It might help if you detail what pump you are using and if you are using other than a standard sized pulley set-up. The pump may be part of your issue. Yours is the first I have read or heard about where "play" was an issue. I have read of cases where the steering did not re-center well without assistance. I am pretty sure some alignment tweaks can solve that one. I wonder if maybe you have something mechanical outside of the Borgeson box that might be to blame for your problem.
 
Well, like I said, I don't really have time right now. I'll post later with more details, but the play is most definitely in the steering box. That is not in question by me or Borgeson. Here's a link to the video. It's not the greatest video, but I think it clearly shows that the play is in the box, meaning between the input shaft and the output shaft.

://s288.photobucket.com/albums/ll187/bravenrace/?action=view&current=MVI_5030-1.mp4
 
Okay, here's the deal on the kit.
I bought the complete kit with the pump and all. You can see it in the video. The front end is all new, and there is no slop whatsoever in any part of the system except the gearbox. These gearboxes aren't new, they're rebuilt Isuzu units, so there is definitely a potential for problems. If you do a little googling, you'll find I'm not the only one with this issue.
Borgeson, for their part, have been prompt in responding to me, but have failed miserably in coming up with a solution. This is the second box I've had in the car and it does the same thing as the first, even though they tell me that the possibility of this is "infinitesimal", to use their words.
Why haven't I just put in a 3rd box? Well, to change the box I have to remove the header and part of the exhaust, the steering column, the pitman arm, the clutch linkage, the power steering fluid and hoses, and raise the engine up 2". I'm not a young guy any more, and I don't have a lot of time either, so I'm not all that happy about having to do this again. I asked them if they could guarantee that another box would be defect free, and they wouldn't.
In addition to this issue, the power steering pump is poorly mounted and too far away from the engine. The hoses are cheap, and come off the pump at the wrong angles to be routed properly. Still, my preference would be to make all this work, but I'm not feeling too good about Borgeson right now, mostly because they don't have any answers and don't seem motivated to get them. I asked them how they check the boxes - no answer. I asked them what their spec was on rotational clearance - no answer. I asked them if they could make sure the next box is right before they ship it and they said no. They now want me to tighten the adjustment screw on the box even though they told me that they are very careful to do that before shipping. I asked them what their procedure was for adjusting it, and they only said "tighten it 1/4 turn". That doesn't seem too smart unless you know it's a 1/4 turn loose. So none of this gives me the warm fuzzies, and I don't really have any confidence at this point that they are doing anything but taking shots in the dark with this.
So anyways, the main reason I asked about this was to see what experience others have had that have done this installation.
I don't need help determining the problem, as I already know what the problem is, but any help in getting it resolved would be appreciated.
 
I see the "play" you describe in your video. Hard to tell though just how it would translate to actual driving performance.

I'll try and pull my off the shelf tonight or tomorrow and check it's operation for a point of reference. FWIW, there is an adjustment screw on the box for a reason, same as on the originals. Having to adjust it isn't necessarily indication of a defective box. It's purpose is to remove "slop", after all.
 
I have yet to stumble across a single person who is happy with their Borgensen conversion. I say stumble because I'm not really looking, just in my forum "travels".
 
That's not an awful lot of slop for a power steering box, to tell you the truth. It's sloppier than a manual box for sure, but even today's cars have that amount of slop (1-1.5"). Have you driven the car on the road yet? Does it feel sloppy there?
 
Yeah, I've driven it. It's hard to adequately explain, but within that range of slop, the wheel feels totallly disconnected from the car. It's very disconcerting. I have an old Chevy truck that probably has as much play, but it doesn't feel totally disconnected like that, and thus is much easier to drive.
Consider this. The slop is significantly more than my 100k plus mile factory power steering setup had. Also consider that Borgeson is continuing to insist that there should be NO slop whatsoever. Since I asked them this question before I ever bought it, and my main motivation was to get rid of the slop, hopefully you can see why I'm not satisfied.
Horseplay - Keep in mind that you WILL have play in the box until it is powered. Also, my comment about adjusting the box wasn't because I didn't know what it's for. It's because he repeatedly told me that they have stringent quality control and that the boxes go through an extensive process to be adjusted. Then he tells me to just tighten it. If he is so sure that it's properly adjusted, then he's telling me to tighten it too much. That will just put it in a bind and prematurely wear it. It doesn't make sense. I wanted to follow whatever procedure they did, but after boasting about it, he couldn't tell me what it was.
I'm not impressed with these guys at all.
 
I put one on a 68 for a friend a couple weeks ago and he loves it. He's happy with the feel. I drove it after I aligned it and it was fine.

It had a tiny amount of slop in it but not enough to mess with adjusting it.

Was your car a power steering car before?
 
Well first, thanks Sluggo for the real world information.
And yes, the car had factory power steering. And the play in this system is no less than that one. Really the only benefit it has at this point is that it isn't overboosted like the original system. That one thing isn't worth what I paid.
Did you watch my video? Do you have any feel for how the play in my setup compares with the one you installed?
Again, it's not just the play, it's that within that play, it the wheel feels totally disconnected from the steering system.
 
I was thinking about this and want to add something.
The slop or play - My truck has some play in it, and it has a similar box and linkage as the mustang. But there's a difference. In the truck, you get the feeling that the play is a result of a little play in many parts of the system, including just flex in the tire. As you turn the wheel, the feel changes. You feel more and more resistance until the tires start to turn.
In the Mustang, there is no change as you turn the wheel. Like I've said before, it's like the wheel isn't even connected to the system. I think this is because 100% of this play is between the steering shaft/gearbox input shaft and the steering box. The steering wheel is in fact virtually disconnected from the steering system. Hopefully that explains a little bit why this play is so disconcerting compared to what it might look like in the video. Again, the play is all in the box. All that steering wheel movement must happen before the sector gear moves at all.
Anybody else install one of these that can add their experience?
 
I have the borgenson conversion in my 68 Mustang and so far I am happy with it.
I do not have that 'disconnected' feeling while driving that you experience.
Mine was already power steering and it felt sloppy before the conversion.
My driving experience is that the system feels much tighter.
I have not actually looked at mine while moving the steering as in your video to see if there is that type of play in the box

I might have to check that out during the weekend.

RME
 
Thanks for the input. I think you would have noticed if you had this kind of play. And like I said, even Borgeson agrees there's a problem. My issue is mainly that I've gotten two of them in a row with the exact same problem, and to me that is starting to suggest that either this is a wider spread problem than they want me to think it is, or it's normal for this setup. Either way, I don't want to put another box in my car just to find it's the same way. That's why I'm asking here. I hoped to find people like you who have installed it and can tell me what your experience is. Thanks!
 
I'm going to assume you replaced replaced the control valve on the end of the drag link with the supplied adapter.

I'll look at the vid. brb
 
way more slop in the vid than I experienced.

I would loosen the jamb nut on the top and tighten the screw down 1/4 turn and see how that feels. I bet it would help a lot.

I've rebuilt a couple boxes at work many moons ago. It's pretty tough to get them dead nuts on the bench with no shaft or load attached.

If they're rebuilding these things in mass, I'd bet they try to err on the loose side.

I think it'll take about 1/2 to 3/4 turn to get you happy. Go a 1/4 on the first try then an 1/8th at a time after that. You don't want it any tighter than it has to be. I'd actually leave just a tiny bit of play so it does not feel darty.
 
Update - Looks like Borgeson is going to send me a third steering box. They said they would guarantee that this one is 100%, so we'll see. Stay tuned....
 
Can you guys post some pictures? I harvested a Isuzu Trooper box the other day and was thinking of using it on the Vert. I'm curious to see of it's the same and how it's' mounted. I can't get the video to work.
 
Finally seen the vid. I'm not sure that's much slop at all. It seems that its fairly tight. Horseplay, I'd love to see pictures of the gear before you install it. I seen three other Troopers in the yard that are set to be crushed. I can buy the units for a few bucks each.
 
"67 evil eleanor" said:
Can you guys post some pictures? I harvested a Isuzu Trooper box the other day and was thinking of using it on the Vert. I'm curious to see of it's the same and how it's' mounted. I can't get the video to work.
Click to expand...

The biggest hurdle is the pitman arm, as the Isuzu pitman has too much drop and the mustang pitman doesn't have the same splines as the Isuzu box. There is a thread on the VMF where a guy did the junkyard conversion and welded a portion of the mustang and Isuzu arm together.
 
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